Saturday, May 24, 2025

The Holy Spirit Bears Witness and Testimony

 

John 15:26 ESV

[26]  “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, who proceeds from the Father, HE WILL BEAR WITNESS ABOUT ME. 


Acts 5:32 ESV

[32] And we are WITNESSES to these things, AND SO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom God has given to those who obey him.”


Hebrews 10:15 ESV

[15] And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,


Acts 20:23 ESV

[23] except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. 


Romans 8:16 ESV

[16] The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 


Romans 9:1 ESV

[1]  I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit—


Monday, May 12, 2025

A Brief Proof that Jesus is Worshipped in the New Testament


- Doxologies are an act of worship and there are doxologies to Jesus: 2 Pet. 3:18; 2 Tim. 4:17; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:13-14; Rom. 9:5; passim.

[18] But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST. TO HIM BE THE GLORY both NOW and to the day of ETERNITY. Amen.

See my blogpost linked below for more:

Doxologies to Christ:

- In Heb. 1:6 the author applies the Greek Septuagint's translation of angels worshipping Yahweh in Deut. 32:43 and Ps. 97:7 to Jesus. Proving Jesus is higher than the highest Angel, and proving Jesus is God because He receives the highest type of worship due only to Yahweh.

[43] “Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people’s land.”

[7] All worshipers of images are put to shame, who make their boast in worthless idols; worship him, all you gods!

[6] And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”


- Isaiah 45:23 is arguably the most monotheistic verse in the most monotheistic chapter in the entire OT, and its worship is applied to Jesus in Phil. 2:10-11.

[23] By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

[10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


- Revelation 5:13-14 has ALL CREATURES in heaven, earth, under the earth,  and in the sea WORSHIPPING both the Father and the Son.

[13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” [14] And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.


- Calling on Jesus is an act of worship. It parallels calling on Yahweh in the Old Testament [Ps. 116:4, 13, 17; 145:18]. In fact, calling on Yahweh in Joel 2:32 is applied to Jesus in Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2. Cf. Acts 9:14; 22:16; 2 Tim. 2:22

[4] Then I called on the name of the Lord: “O Lord, I pray, deliver my soul!”
[13] I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the Lord,
[17] I will offer to you the sacrifice of thanksgiving and call on the name of the Lord.

[32] And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD [YHWH] shall be saved....

[13] For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [i.e. Jesus] will be saved.”

[2] To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together WITH ALL THOSE WHO IN EVERY PLACE CALL UPON THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, both their Lord and ours:

[14] And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who CALL ON YOUR NAME.”

[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, CALLING ON HIS NAME.’

[22] So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who CALL ON THE LORD from a pure heart.


- Prayer is an act of worship, and Jesus is prayed to in the NT: 2 Cor. 12:8ff.; Acts 1:24; 7:59-60; 9:10-16; John 14:14 [critical text has "if you ask *ME* anything in my Name"]

- The Prophecy of Dan. 7:13-14 has the Son of Man being served. The Hebrew word there for "serve" is pelach.

//This term (pelach) is reserved for ritualistic service and worship in the book of Daniel. In Daniel, all peoples and nations worship the Son of Man. Earlier in Daniel 3, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refuse to worship the golden statue, stating they only worship God. So if the Son of Man is worshipped, that implies divinity, since worship (pelach) is reserved for God. This parallel between the forced worship of the statue and the rightful worship of the Son of Man is a strong argument for His deity.

• Reserved for Deity: In Daniel 3, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refuse to pelach (worship) Nebuchadnezzar’s statue, reserving this term for God alone.

• Divine Honor for the Son of Man: In 7:14, the Son of Man receives pelach from all nations—a direct parallel to Yahweh’s exclusive right to worship. This inversion of Daniel 3 underscores His divinity.

The scene in Daniel 7 clearly recalls the earlier false worship of the golden statue where all peoples were to serve it. This kind inclusio structure is often done in Biblical material. Before in Chapter 3, the three Jews refused to do so; saying they worship God alone; but here all people rightly worship this Son of Man figure. This indicates the Son of Man is a hypostasis of God, since only YHWH is worthy of this worship or service (pelach).//
END QUOTE

- Jesus is bowed down to in a religious context which connotes worship and which is denied even to angels and false gods [Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9; Rom. 11:4]

kamptō [Phil. 2:10-11]

proskuneō [Matt. 28:17; Luke 24:52

[10] so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[17] And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

[52] And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,






Theological Implications of the Son of Man in Daniel 7


Copied from a Facebook post by Artison Rex

Theological Implications of the Son of Man in Daniel 7

Daniel 7:9–14 (LSB)

9 “I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days was seated... 13 In my night visions, I saw one like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. 14 To Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples and nations should serve Him. His dominion is everlasting, unyielding; His kingdom indestructible.”


Introduction: A Figure of Paradox

The "Son of Man" in Daniel 7 presents a profound paradox—He is both human and divine. While grounded in ancient Near Eastern (ANE) symbolism, this figure reflects Israel’s monotheistic theology, challenging pagan divine kingship and foreshadowing the Messianic hope fulfilled in Jesus Christ.


I. Divine Attributes of the Son of Man


A. Cloud-Rider: A Divine Motif

In ANE cultures, cloud-riding was a well-known divine attribute, especially associated with Baʿal in Ugaritic mythology. The Hebrew Bible appropriates this imagery and applies it exclusively to YHWH, asserting His supremacy.

Deuteronomy 33:26

"There is no one like the God of Jeshurun,

Who rides the heavens (rokhev shamayim) to your help,

And through the skies in His majesty."

Psalm 68:4 (68:5 in some versions)

"Sing to God, sing praises to His name;

Extol Him who rides on the clouds (rokhev ba-aravot),

By His name Yah, and exult before Him."

• Significance: The phrase rokhev ba-aravot ("rides on the clouds") mirrors Baʿal’s title rkb ʿrpt ("Rider of the Clouds") in Ugaritic texts. Here, YHWH is declared the true "cloud-rider," usurping Baʿal’s epithet.

Isaiah 19:1

"Behold, YHWH is riding on a swift cloud (hineh YHWH rokhev al av kal)

And comes to Egypt;

The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence."

• Significance: YHWH’s arrival on a cloud signals judgment against Egypt and its gods, emphasizing His supremacy over pagan deities.

Nahum 1:3

"YHWH is slow to anger and great in power,

And YHWH will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.

In whirlwind and storm is His way,

And clouds are the dust of His feet (avan shchak raglaiv)."

• Significance: Clouds are portrayed as mere dust beneath YHWH’s feet, underscoring His transcendent power over natural forces.

Significance: The Son of Man’s coming on the clouds (Dan 7:13) is a direct divine identifier, aligning Him with YHWH’s cosmic sovereignty and eschatological authority.

Polemic against Baʿal: By using Baʿal’s own title—“cloud-rider”—for YHWH, the Hebrew Bible subverts Canaanite religion. Daniel furthers this polemic by assigning the same imagery to the Son of Man, implying He shares in YHWH’s identity.

• Polemic Against Baʿal: Baʿal was worshipped as the storm god who "rides the clouds" in Ugaritic mythology (e.g., KTU 1.2 IV). By appropriating this imagery, the Hebrew Bible subverts pagan claims and asserts YHWH’s exclusive divinity.


B. Universal Worship (Pelach)

The Aramaic term pelach in Daniel is a liturgical term reserved for deity. Its use in Daniel 7:14 is theologically significant.

• Daniel 3: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refuse to pelach Nebuchadnezzar’s idol, insisting worship belongs to God alone.

Daniel 7:14: All peoples pelach the Son of Man.

Implication: This is not civil homage but cultic worship. The Son of Man is not merely a representative of God—He is worthy of the same worship that belongs to YHWH.

Another point is worship. This term (pelach) is reserved for ritualistic service and worship in the book of Daniel. In Daniel, all peoples and nations worship the Son of Man. Earlier in Daniel 3, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refuse to worship the golden statue, stating they only worship God. So if the Son of Man is worshipped, that implies divinity, since worship (pelach) is reserved for God. This parallel between the forced worship of the statue and the rightful worship of the Son of Man is a strong argument for His deity.

• Reserved for Deity: In Daniel 3, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refuse to pelach (worship) Nebuchadnezzar’s statue, reserving this term for God alone.

• Divine Honor for the Son of Man: In 7:14, the Son of Man receives pelach from all nations—a direct parallel to Yahweh’s exclusive right to worship. This inversion of Daniel 3 underscores His divinity.

The scene in Daniel 7 clearly recalls the earlier false worship of the golden statue where all peoples were to serve it. This kind inclusio structure is often done in Biblical material. Before in Chapter 3, the three Jews refused to do so; saying they worship God alone; but here all people rightly worship this Son of Man figure. This indicates the Son of Man is a hypostasis of God, since only YHWH is worthy of this worship or service (pelach).


C. Eternal Kingdom and Divine Sovereignty

Daniel 7:14: His dominion is everlasting and indestructible.

Daniel 2:44; Psalm 145:13: Echoes of YHWH’s eternal reign.

• The mirroring of Yahweh’s Rule is intentional: The Son of Man’s "everlasting dominion" (7:14) reflects Yahweh’s eternal sovereignty (Psalm 145:13; Daniel 2:44). His kingdom, unshakable and divine, transcends human dynasties. Thus, The Son of Man’s "everlasting dominion" (7:14) intentionally mirrors the eternal reign of Yahweh (Dan 2:44; Ps 145:13). Showing that He is a hypostasis of Yahweh.

• His kingdom will not be destroyed, affirming divine sovereignty.

Conclusion: The Son of Man’s reception of eternal dominion, worship, and divine attributes confirms His identity as a divine figure.


II. Human Duality and Hypostatic Tension


A. The Title “Son of Man”

While in Ezekiel, the term "son of man" emphasizes human frailty, in Daniel 7, it denotes a transcendent figure. He appears human but exercises divine authority, a union that prefigures the doctrine of the hypostatic union.


B. ANE Parallels and Biblical Innovation

• ANE Precedent: Rulers like Pharaoh were seen as hypostases (embodiments) of gods (Ra/Horus). 

• No Deification of Humans: Unlike Pharaoh or Ba’al’s proxies, the Son of Man is not a deified human. He is a heavenly figure, pre-existent and transcendent, He is Yahweh incarnate and the Messiah.

• Daniel’s Transformation: The Son of Man is no mere deified king. He is a heavenly figure, distinct – yet, inseparable from Yahweh, executing divine judgment (7:10–12).

• Polemic Against Paganism: The cloud-rider motif and universal worship subvert ANE idolatry, positioning Yahweh’s agent as the true cosmic sovereign.

Daniel’s vision is thus a monotheistic innovation. It preserves divine transcendence while introducing a distinct, personal mediator who embodies YHWH’s rule—without polytheism.


III. Jesus Christ: Fulfillment and Controversy


A. Jesus’ Use of the Title "Son of Man"

Jesus refers to Himself as “Son of Man” over 80 times in the Gospels, connecting His mission to Daniel 7:

Mark 2:10–12: Authority to forgive sins.

Matthew 25:31–32: Judge of the nations.

Mark 14:62: Seated at the right hand of Power, coming with the clouds.


B. Trial Before Caiaphas: The Turning Point and Explosive Declaration

“I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62).

This reference to Daniel 7 and Psalm 110:1 is the theological climax:

• Sitting at God’s right hand: A claim to divine authority.

• Coming on the clouds: A claim to divine identity.

• High Priest’s response (Mark 14:63): Tearing his robes, the formal sign of hearing blasphemy (Lev 10:6; 21:10).

• Verdict (Mark 14:64): Blasphemy.


C. The Scandal of Hypostatic Union

• Blasphemy Charge:

• Divine Equality: Sitting at God’s "right hand" (Psalm 110:1) and cloud-riding (Daniel 7:13) implied shared divinity—a clear blasphemous claim in Second Temple Judaism.

• The High Priest’s Reaction:

• Tearing His Robes (Mark 14:63): A ritual act signaling horror at blasphemy (Leviticus 10:6; 21:10).

• Verdict: "You have heard his blasphemy!" (Mark 14:64).

Why This Was Blasphemy:

• Divine Identity: In Second Temple Judaism, claiming to sit with God or share His throne was unthinkable (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11).

• Hypostatic Tension: While ANE cultures accepted kings as divine hypostases (e.g., Pharaoh as Ra’s embodiment), Judaism strictly rejected human-divine merging. Jesus’ claim to be Yahweh’s hypostasis—

• Hypostatic Union: Jesus’ claim to be both human and divine shattered Jewish monotheistic boundaries, prompting the High Priest to tear his robes (Leviticus 10:6; 21:10).

• Daniel’s Son of Man operates as a monotheistic hypostasis—a unique heavenly figure embodying Yahweh’s rule without compromising His singularity. While rooted in ANE patterns of divine mediation (e.g., Pharaoh as Ra’s hypostasis), the vision transcends them, offering a theological innovation: a divine-human agent who is both distinct to Yahweh and yet identified as Yahweh. He is presented to YHWH as YHWH Himself. This figure became a cornerstone for later messianic and Christological developments, bridging the transcendent and immanent in a way that both echoed and challenged ANE thought.

• Jesus’ use of the "Son of Man" title was neither accidental nor merely messianic. By invoking Daniel 7 and Psalm 110 at His trial, He claimed to be the divine agent of Yahweh’s kingdom—a hypostasis in a Jewish context that allowed no such category. To the High Priest, this was blasphemy; to Christians, it was the revelation of God’s ultimate Word made flesh (John 1:1, 14). The tearing of robes symbolizes the rupture between old paradigms and the new covenant, where the Son of Man’s divine-human identity becomes the cornerstone of redemption.

In Second Temple Judaism, no category existed for a human sharing YHWH’s throne or receiving worship. Jesus’ claim introduces a new theological paradigm—a divine-human person who fulfills Israel’s hopes without violating monotheism.


IV. Theological Implications


A. Monotheistic Innovation

Daniel introduces a divine agent who is with God and as God. This anticipates Trinitarian categories, affirming the Son of Man’s distinct personhood yet shared identity with YHWH.


B. Eschatological Mediator

The Son of Man inaugurates God’s final kingdom (Dan 7:26–27). He executes divine judgment and ushers in everlasting righteousness.


C. Christological Foundation

Early Christians saw Jesus' resurrection and exaltation as the fulfillment of Daniel’s vision:

Matthew 26:64; Revelation 1:7: Jesus, the divine cloud-rider, returns in glory.

John 1:14; Colossians 2:9: God’s presence now dwells bodily in Christ.


Conclusion: Bridging Heaven and Earth

Daniel’s Son of Man transcends ANE mythology, offering a vision of divine authority embodied in a human-like figure. For Israel, this was a polemic against idolatry; for Christians, it became the blueprint for understanding Jesus as both Messiah and God. The tearing of the High Priest’s robes symbolizes the rupture between old paradigms and the new covenant—a covenant where the Son of Man, crucified and risen, reigns as the cornerstone of creation’s redemption.

Daniel’s Son of Man is a transcendent figure embodying divine authority through cloud-riding, universal worship, and eternal kingship. These elements, combined with the human title, suggest a messianic figure who bridges the divine and human realms, challenging pagan claims while advancing Israel’s theological narrative. Early Christians saw Jesus as fulfilling this role, interpreting His resurrection and ascension as the ultimate enactment of Daniel’s vision (Matthew 26:64; Revelation 1:7). This synthesis of human and divine motifs makes the Son of Man a cornerstone of biblical messianic expectation.


Final Reflection

The Son of Man in Daniel 7 stands as the cornerstone of biblical theology—a divine-human figure who is worshiped, enthroned, and sovereign over all. He is both divine and human, worshiped and enthroned, embodying the very tension at the heart of the gospel: fully God, fully man. In Him, Daniel’s vision reaches its fulfillment, and Yahweh’s eternal kingdom breaks into human history. His dual identity confronts us with an unavoidable decision—either to tear our robes in blasphemous rejection or to fall in reverent awe before the One who comes with the clouds, worthy of worship as Lord.

Saturday, May 10, 2025

Artificial Intelligence and Unitarianism vs. Trinitarianism

Obviously, all conversations with AI in 2025 should be taken with a grain of salt. I asked various Artificial Intelligences the following question:

Just based on the Biblical evidence alone and an inductive study of the Bible alone, and leaving out historical theology and later patristic church developments after the 1st century, which has a greater claim to being biblical? Something like Unitarianism or something like Trinitarianism?

Grok's answer:

To determine whether Unitarianism or Trinitarianism has a greater claim to being biblical based solely on an inductive study of the Bible, without reference to historical theology or post-1st-century patristic developments, we must examine the New Testament (and relevant Old Testament background) for evidence concerning the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. An inductive approach involves collecting and analyzing scriptural data to form conclusions based on patterns and teachings in the text. Below, I’ll outline the key biblical evidence, assess how it aligns with Unitarianism (God as a single person, typically the Father, with Jesus as a distinct, non-divine being or subordinate agent) versus Trinitarianism (God as one being in three distinct, coequal, coeternal persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), and conclude which view better accounts for the full scope of biblical data.

Biblical Evidence
1. Monotheism: The Oneness of God
The Bible consistently affirms that there is only one God, a foundational belief in both Unitarianism and Trinitarianism.
  • Deuteronomy 6:4: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
  • Isaiah 45:5: “I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god.”
  • Mark 12:29: Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4, affirming, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
  • 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6: Paul states, “There is no God but one… for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Implication: Both Unitarianism and Trinitarianism affirm monotheism. Unitarianism interprets this as God being one person (the Father). Trinitarianism interprets it as one divine essence shared by three persons, consistent with the singular “God” and “Lord” in these texts.
2. The Identity of Jesus (The Son)
The New Testament’s portrayal of Jesus is central to distinguishing between Unitarianism and Trinitarianism.
  • Divinity of Jesus:
    • John 1:1-3, 14: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” The “Word” (Jesus) is explicitly called God and credited with creation, a divine prerogative.
    • John 10:30: Jesus says, “I and the Father are one,” prompting accusations of blasphemy (John 10:33: “You, being a man, make yourself God”).
    • John 20:28: Thomas declares to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus accepts this without correction.
    • Philippians 2:6-7: Jesus, “being in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant.”
    • Colossians 2:9: “In [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”
    • Hebrews 1:3: Jesus is “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature,” and in 1:8, God says of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever” (quoting Psalm 45:6).
    • Titus 2:13: Paul refers to “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”
  • Divine Prerogatives and Worship:
    • Mark 2:5-7: Jesus forgives sins, which the scribes recognize as a divine act (“Who can forgive sins but God alone?”).
    • John 5:22-23: Jesus says, “The Father… has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.”
    • Revelation 5:12-14: The Lamb (Jesus) receives worship alongside the Father, with creatures ascribing “blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever” to both.
  • Distinction from the Father:
    • John 14:28: Jesus says, “The Father is greater than I,” indicating a distinction in role or position.
    • John 17:5: Jesus prays, “Glorify me… with the glory I had with you before the world existed,” suggesting preexistence and distinction from the Father.
    • Matthew 26:39: Jesus prays, “Not as I will, but as you will,” showing distinct wills while united in purpose.
Implication: These passages strongly support Jesus’ divinity, preexistence, and equality with God, aligning with Trinitarianism’s view of the Son as fully God yet distinct from the Father. Unitarianism, which typically views Jesus as a human prophet, Messiah, or subordinate divine agent (e.g., an exalted creature), struggles to account for texts like John 1:1, John 20:28, and Colossians 2:9, which attribute full deity to Jesus. Unitarians might interpret “Son of God” or “Lord” as titles of agency or honor (e.g., Psalm 2:7, applied to kings), but this requires downplaying or reinterpreting explicit claims of deity.
3. The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit’s nature and role further differentiate the two views.
  • Divinity of the Holy Spirit:
    • Acts 5:3-4: Peter says to Ananias, “Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?… You have not lied to man but to God.” The Holy Spirit is equated with God.
    • 1 Corinthians 2:10-11: The Spirit “searches everything, even the depths of God,” and knows God’s thoughts, indicating divine omniscience.
    • Psalm 139:7-8 (cited in NT context): The Spirit’s omnipresence is affirmed: “Where shall I go from your Spirit?”
  • Personal Attributes:
    • John 14:16-17: Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “another Helper” (parakletos), implying a personal role distinct from himself and the Father.
    • John 16:13-14: The Spirit “will guide you into all the truth… He will glorify me,” indicating personal actions like teaching and glorifying.
    • Romans 8:26-27: The Spirit “intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words,” suggesting a distinct, active role.
  • Association with Father and Son:
    • Matthew 28:19: Jesus commands baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” placing the Spirit alongside the Father and Son as coequal in divine authority.
    • 2 Corinthians 13:14: Paul’s benediction invokes “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit,” suggesting the Spirit’s coequal role.
Implication: The Holy Spirit is depicted as divine (equal to God), personal (not a mere force), and distinct from the Father and Son. Trinitarianism accounts for this by viewing the Spirit as the third person of the Godhead. Unitarianism typically regards the Holy Spirit as God’s power or influence (e.g., citing Luke 1:35, where the Spirit is parallel to “the power of the Most High”), but this struggles to explain the Spirit’s personal actions (e.g., interceding, teaching) and explicit identification as God (Acts 5:3-4).
4. Relational Dynamics and Unity
The New Testament portrays the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in dynamic relationship, often emphasizing their unity.
  • John 14:9-11: Jesus says, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father… I am in the Father and the Father is in me,” suggesting a mutual indwelling that preserves distinction yet affirms unity.
  • John 15:26: Jesus says, “The Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me,” showing the Spirit’s distinct role in relation to the Father and Son.
  • John 16:14-15: Jesus says of the Spirit, “He will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine,” indicating shared divine authority and essence.
  • Ephesians 4:4-6: Paul speaks of “one Spirit… one Lord [Jesus]… one God and Father,” linking the three in the context of unity. Xxxx
Implication: These texts suggest a complex unity-in-distinction, where the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct yet share divine attributes and authority. Trinitarianism interprets this as one divine essence in three persons. Unitarianism, emphasizing God as one person, often views Jesus and the Spirit as subordinate agents or manifestations of the Father’s will, but this requires reinterpreting texts that affirm their deity and distinctness.
5. Old Testament Context
The Old Testament provides background for New Testament claims, particularly regarding monotheism and hints of divine complexity.
  • Genesis 1:2: The “Spirit of God” is active in creation, suggesting a distinct divine agency.
  • Isaiah 9:6: The Messiah is called “Mighty God, Everlasting Father,” attributing divine titles to a future figure.
  • Psalm 110:1: David says, “The Lord says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand,’” which Jesus applies to himself (Matthew 22:41-45), implying a distinction within God’s identity.
  • Isaiah 48:16: A speaker (possibly the Servant) says, “The Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit,” hinting at a triad of divine actors.
Implication: While the Old Testament emphasizes monotheism, it contains inklings of divine plurality (e.g., “Let us make man” in Genesis 1:26) that the New Testament expands upon. Trinitarianism sees these as consistent with a multi-personal God, while Unitarianism interprets them as poetic or referring to angels or God’s power.

Analysis: Unitarianism vs. Trinitarianism
Unitarianism’s Biblical Case
Unitarianism argues that the Bible teaches God as one person (the Father), with Jesus as a human Messiah or exalted agent and the Holy Spirit as God’s active power.
  • Strengths:
    • Affirms strict monotheism (Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29), aligning with Old Testament emphasis.
    • Cites texts suggesting Jesus’ subordination, e.g., John 14:28 (“The Father is greater than I”) and 1 Corinthians 15:28 (“The Son himself will be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him”).
    • Interprets “Son of God” and “Lord” as titles of human or messianic authority (e.g., Psalm 2:7, Acts 2:36: “God has made him both Lord and Christ”).
    • Views the Holy Spirit as God’s power, citing Luke 1:35 and Acts 1:8, where the Spirit empowers without personal attributes.
  • Weaknesses:
Trinitarianism’s Biblical Case
Trinitarianism argues that the Bible reveals one God in three distinct, coequal persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Conclusion
Based solely on an inductive study of the Bible, Trinitarianism has a greater claim to being biblical than Unitarianism. The New Testament consistently presents:
Unitarianism aligns well with Old Testament monotheism and some subordination texts but struggles to account for the New Testament’s clear affirmations of Jesus’ and the Holy Spirit’s divinity and personal distinction. Passages like John 1:1, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, and Matthew 28:19 are difficult to reconcile with a strictly Unitarian view without significant reinterpretation (e.g., treating “God” as a functional title or the Spirit as an impersonal force). Trinitarianism, while requiring synthesis to articulate “three persons in one essence,” better captures the full range of biblical data, including the complex interplay of unity and distinction among Father, Son, and Spirit.
Thus, an inductive reading of the Bible, particularly the New Testament, supports Trinitarianism as the more comprehensive and coherent explanation of God’s nature as revealed in Scripture.  


Meta AI's answer:

Based solely on biblical evidence and an inductive study, the question of whether Unitarianism or Trinitarianism has a greater claim to being biblical is complex. Both perspectives find support in various scriptural passages.


*Unitarian Perspective:*


- *Monotheism*: The Bible emphasizes God's unity (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6).

- *Jesus' Subordination*: Some passages suggest Jesus' subordination to God (1 Corinthians 11:3, 15:28).

- *Distinct Roles*: Unitarians argue that the Father, Son, and Spirit have distinct roles but not necessarily distinct natures.


*Trinitarian Perspective:*


- *Divinity of Jesus*: Passages like John 1:1-14 and Colossians 2:9 affirm Jesus' divinity.

- *Divinity of the Spirit*: Acts 5:3-4 and 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 suggest the Spirit's divinity.

- *Co-Equal yet Distinct*: Trinitarians point to passages like Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14, which imply a co-equal yet distinct relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit.


*Inductive Study Considerations:*


- *Contextual Analysis*: Understanding the historical and literary context of key passages is crucial.

- *Thematic Consistency*: Examining the thematic consistency of biblical teachings on God's nature and the relationships between the Father, Son, and Spirit.


While both perspectives have biblical support, Trinitarianism might have a stronger claim due to the cumulative evidence from Christological and pneumatological passages. However, the complexity of biblical data allows for ongoing debate and interpretation.


ChatGPT's answer:

Excellent and very focused question — one that strikes at the core of Christian doctrinal development.

You're asking: If we rely only on the Bible itself, using inductive reasoning (letting the text lead to conclusions rather than imposing systems), and excluding later theology and Church tradition after the 1st century, then:

Which has a stronger claim to being biblical: Unitarianism (God is one person) or Trinitarianism (God is one essence in three persons)?


🔍 First: What We Mean by “Inductive Biblical Study”

  • No systematic theology imposed.

  • Letting the text speak for itself.

  • Considering all relevant passages.

  • Looking at how God is revealed in both Old and New Testaments.

  • Not using post-biblical terminology (e.g. “homoousios”), but testing whether the concepts are there.


📘 What the Bible Clearly Teaches (Inductively)

1. There is One God

This is undeniable and constant across both Testaments.

  • “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Deut. 6:4)

  • “I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God.” (Isaiah 45:5)

  • “…there is no God but one.” (1 Cor. 8:4)

✅ Both Trinitarians and Unitarians affirm this.


2. Jesus is Called God and Does Divine Things

  • “In the beginning was the Word… and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

  • “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28, Thomas to Jesus)

  • “In him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily.” (Col. 2:9)

  • Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2), receives worship (Matt. 28:17), and commands judgment (John 5:22–23)

This goes beyond a merely exalted prophet or agent. The biblical text attributes divine identity and prerogatives to Jesus.

➡️ Unitarianism struggles to explain these texts without extensive reinterpretation.


3. The Holy Spirit Is Personal and Divine

  • The Spirit speaks, grieves, teaches, intercedes — not impersonal force behavior.

  • Acts 5:3–4 — lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

  • The Spirit is listed alongside the Father and Son:

    • “Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matt. 28:19)

    • “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit…” (2 Cor. 13:14)

➡️ The personhood and divine activity of the Spirit are strong indicators of more than mere metaphor or divine energy.


🆚 Side-by-Side Summary

Doctrinal PointBible Affirms Clearly?Unitarianism?Trinitarianism?
Monotheism (One God)✅ Yes✅ Yes✅ Yes
Jesus called God / Worshipped✅ Yes❌ Often reinterpreted✅ Yes
Jesus shares divine functions (creation, judgment, etc.)✅ Yes❌ Harder to explain✅ Yes
Spirit is personal and divine✅ Implied strongly❌ Generally denied✅ Affirmed
Father, Son, Spirit distinguished yet united✅ Yes❌ Unity only, no distinction✅ Central

🧠 Conclusion: Which Is More Biblical on Inductive Grounds Alone?

👉 Based solely on inductive reading of Scripture, Trinitarianism has the stronger biblical claim.

  • It accounts for all the data: one God, but three distinct persons who share divine identity and work.

  • Unitarianism explains monotheism well, but struggles to handle the full deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit without reinterpreting or flattening clear texts.


⚠️ Important Caveat

  • The term “Trinity” and the formalized doctrine develop later.

  • But the raw materials — the building blocks of Trinitarian belief — are clearly present in the biblical text itself.

So even before post-apostolic theology or creeds (like Nicaea), an inductive reading supports something very close to Trinitarianism — not Unitarianism.

Would you like a breakdown of specific passages that are central to this argument, or how early Christian writers interpreted these before the Council of Nicaea?


Duck AI's answer:

When evaluating Unitarianism and Trinitarianism based solely on biblical evidence and an inductive study of the Bible, several key points can be considered for each perspective:


Unitarianism


Strict Monotheism: Unitarianism emphasizes the oneness of God, aligning closely with the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4), which states, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." This foundational verse is often cited to support a strict monotheistic view.


Jesus as a Human Figure: Unitarianism typically views Jesus as a prophet or a significant human being, but not as divine in the same sense as God the Father. Verses such as John 14:28, where Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I," are often interpreted to support this view.


Lack of Explicit Trinitarian Language: Unitarianism points out that the term "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible, and that the explicit formulation of the Trinity developed later in church history.


Trinitarianism


Divine Nature of Christ: Trinitarianism holds that Jesus is fully divine and fully human. Key verses such as John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God") and Colossians 2:9 ("For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form") are often cited to support the divinity of Christ.


The Holy Spirit: Trinitarians argue that the Holy Spirit is also fully God, as seen in passages like Acts 5:3-4, where lying to the Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God.


Baptismal Formula: The Great Commission in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," is interpreted as evidence of a triune understanding of God.


Conclusion


The determination of which view has a greater claim to being biblical often depends on the interpretive lens through which one reads the Scriptures. Unitarianism emphasizes a strict monotheism and the humanity of Jesus, while Trinitarianism emphasizes the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, supported by various New Testament texts.


Ultimately, individuals may arrive at different conclusions based on their readings of the same biblical texts, and the debate between these two perspectives continues to be a significant theological discussion within Christianity.

Monday, April 21, 2025

Review of the Dialogue Between Rabbi Tovia Singer and New Testament Unitarian Sam Tideman


Someone in the comments of this Blog asked me to review a dialogue between a New Testament Unitarian named Sam Tideman and the well known anti-missionary rabbi Tovia Singer. Here's the link to the video:  https://youtu.be/Jg40zoYJIrM . The following are some of my comments and observations.

I listened to the entire dialogue and I didn't hear anything particularly new or devastating to Trinitarianism. It was a long video, I can only give comments on highlights. I can't review every video everyone asks me to review. I would like to, but I don't have the time. I agreed to do it in this case because in the past I've found both speakers interesting.

Every objection I heard in the dialogue/discussion I can or have refuted or have heard Anthony Rogers address and refute before. Though, not being fluent in the Biblical languages, I wouldn't be able to address the detailed arguments based on Hebrew or Greek. But Anthony Rogers can and has addressed the linguistic issues. There are a lot of good defenders of Trinitarianism alive today, but I think Anthony Rogers is the best one around. I recommend his videos and debates located in his YouTube channel, and in other people's channels. Also his older articles. He has a number of videos addressing rabbi Tovia Singer's objections. I've linked to many of Anthony's videos in this Blog. People can browse or search Trinity Notes.

Anthony Rogers' Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Ousias1/videos

Anthony Rogers' Articles at Answering Islam on the Trinity and Islam:
https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers.html

Many (if not All) of Anthony Rogers' Debates in MP3:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/anthony-rogers-debates/id1443906144?fbclid=IwAR196HAP6DuPTG8m3X1SPg26oTjojva_FDjtO2nsqk7o9zmyQcpVV7dnN-w

Unless otherwise indicated, I'll be quoting the ESV for the most part. I'll sometimes quote other translations that are less biased [e.g. for Josh. 5:14 where "worshipped" isn't used in a biased manner, so that the idea of obeisance might be a possible and optional interpretation].



- At 0:07:40 into the video Tovia relayed asking some students, if they were God, and wanted to convey to mankind there's only one God, what would they put in the Bible. After he gives his usual spiel, he then goes on to contradict himself [or at least cause tension in his views] by admitting the Tanakh sometimes refers to creatures representing God [whether humans like Moses or angels] as God. He called it an "inconvenient" reality and feature of the Tanach. Exactly.

Well, to answer his original question about how I would inspire the Bible if Unitarianism were true, I DEFINITELY WOULD NOT use "elohim" or "adonai" to refer to God as the Tanakh does. Why? Because,  as Anthony Rogers points out, in the Bible the word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; *both of these words are PLURAL nouns in Hebrew*. This BY ITSELF doesn't prove the Trinity, and not all instances can be used to support the Trinity [e.g. sometimes it refers to men or angels, etc.], but some can. If God were absolutely singular, then it would have been wise for God to not use "elohim" and "adonai."

Nick Norelli in his book The Defense of an Essential: A Believer’s Handbook for Defending the Trinity listed the following:

1. Plural Verbs

o Genesis 20:13
English Translation: God caused me to wander
Hebrew: ה התתְעוו ו אלתהים, א אלֹל ה היםם
Literally: They caused me to wander

o Genesis 35:7
English Translation: God appeared
Hebrew: נהגתְלֹו ו א אלֹלָיםו לָ ה א אלֹל ה היםם
Literally: They appeared

o 2Samuel 7:23
English Translation: God went
Hebrew: לָ הלֹתְכוו ו -א א אלֹל ה היםם
Literally: They went

o Psalms 58:12
English Translation: God that judges
Hebrew: א אלֹל ה היםם ששלפתְ ה טיםם
Literally: Gods that judge

2. Plural Adjectives

o Deuteronomy 5:26
English Translation: living God
Hebrew: א אלֹל ה היםם ח חים ה יםום
Literally: Living Gods8

o Joshua 24:19
English Translation: holy God
Hebrew: א אלֹל ה היםם תְ קדֹלששהיםם
Literally: Holy Gods

3. Plural Nouns

o Ecclesiastes 12:1
English Translation: thy Creator
Hebrew: בוולרתְ אֶ איםךלָ
Literally: Creators

o Isaiah 54:5
English Translation: For thy Maker is thy husband
Hebrew: בל ע עולֹחיִךתְ עולששחיִךתְ
Literally: Makers, Husbands9

o Malachi 1:6
English Translation: Master
Hebrew: ע אדֹולנהיםם
Literally: Masters10

o Daniel 7:18
English Translation: Most High
Hebrew: אֶ עולֹתְיםולנהיםן
Literally: Most High Ones

footnotes:
8 See also 1Samuel 17:26, 36 & Jeremiah 10:10, 23:36 for “living Gods”
9 See also Psalm 149:2 for “Makers”
10 Nearly every occurrence of the noun “Lord” ( ע אדֹולנהים ) in reference to God appears in the plural form.
END QUOTE

When all is said and done, the Old Testament uses  plural nouns, plural pronouns, plural verbs, plural adverbs, and plural adjectives for God. Pretty unwise for God to do that, if there's no sense in which God is multiple in His unity.

Regarding Tovia's admission of the "inconvenient" reality and feature of the Tanakh that someone other than the Father is called God, he can't just chalk it up to it always referring to creatures. Sometimes the Angel of Yahweh is worshipped [or at least bowed down to in obeisance ] in ways seemingly only Yahweh is supposed to be. And the Bible claims or describes the Angel of Yahweh to have done things or to do things other passages [sometimes in the same book] say Yahweh did. Rogers goes into this very well and in-depth. Just Watch Rogers' videos (including his debates). I don't have time to elaborate much.  For example these passages:


Judges 2:1-2 [COMPARE with the first of the 10 Commandments where Yahweh says He did it.]
1    Now the angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And HE SAID, "I BROUGHT YOU UP FROM EGYPT and brought you into the land that *I SWORE* to give to your fathers. I said, 'I will never break *MY COVENANT* covenant with you,
2    and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars.' But you have not obeyed my voice. What is this you have done?


Joshua 5:13-15 NASB95
13    Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?"
14    He said, "No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"
15    The captain of the LORD's host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.

Presumably, this commander of the LORD's army is the Angel of the LORD, yet Joshua takes his sandals off in reverence, or even worship. Similar to what Moses did at Burning Bush.



- At 1:38:52 into the video this passage of Jos. 5:13-15 is addressed. But neither Sam nor Tovia addresses or even mentions the issues of Joshua being commanded to take off his sandals because he's on Holy Ground [presumably due the commander's presence]. The answer Tovia and Sam the host give about it being reverence/obeisance [while true in other circumstances] doesn't seem to fit here because of the issue of Holy Ground and the removal of sandals. About 20% way through the video Sam [with Tovia's approval and encouragement] plays/pretends to be a Trinitarian to help Steelman the Trinitarian position and arguments, rather than Strawmanning them. However the host doesn't play the part of Trinitarian's Advocate well by failing to connect it with the Burning Bush incident where something very similar happens. And where a similar command to remove one's sandals is given. So much so are the similarities apparent, that it almost self-prompts the question of whether the Angel of the LORD/Yahweh in the Burning Bush is the same person here in Joshua 5. Compare Exo. 3:2 and the entire chapters with each other. Sam failed at Steelmanning and Tovia failed anticipating Trinitarian rebuttals.


Exodus 3:2 And the ANGEL of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

A plausible case could be made that the Angel of the LORD is worshipped there. Again, see Rogers' videos for more details.




- At 0:29:40 into the video they address Gen. 1:26. The answers they give don't anticipate or overcome Rogers' arguments in this video Here:

The Trinity in Genesis? Two Objections (The Trinity in Jewish and Christian Scriptures, Part 2)
https://youtu.be/6Yf2t3TnTRg




- At 1:11:25 Sam, and then at 1:13:12 Tovia, address the issue of whether God can be seen or not. Sam mentioned the apparent contradiction of Ex. 33:11 and 19 [same chapter!]. Tovia gives his answer, but Sam again didn't play the Trinitarian's Advocate well by failing to connect it with Num. 12:16.


Exo 33:11    Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
COMPARE WITH THE SEEMING OPPOSITE
Exo 33:19    And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20    But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Sam should have brought up, and Tovia should have addressed, this passage:

Num.12:6    And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream.
7    Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house.
8    With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and HE BEHOLDS THE FORM OF THE LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

Or passages like:

Exodus 24:10 ESV [10] and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

Trinitarianism can easily explain the apparent contradiction. When God was seen in the Old Testament, they only saw the pre-incarnate Son. But never the Father. That's how God was both seen and never seen in the Old Testament.

Somewhere in the video they mention Jacob's encounter wrestling an angel. Then Tovia says that Hos. 12 makes it clear it's only a mere angel. But he doesn't address, nor does Sam [playing Trinitarian] mention how and why that passage seems to teach the opposite in the opinion of many Trinitarians. Tovia is probably referring to Hos. 12:4, but the very next verse seems to give further clarification that implies it was YHWH Himself. Which fits perfectly well with versions of Trinitarianism that identify the Angel of the LORD/Yahweh as the pre-incarnate Jesus.

Hosea 12:4-5 ESV

[4] He strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor. He met God at Bethel, and there God spoke with us— [5] the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD is his memorial name:




- At 1:24:42 Sam brought up John 20:28 where Thomas said, "My Lord and my God." Again Sam doesn't play the Trinitarian Advocate very well. He should have given pushback to Tovia by pointing out the text says Thomas "said TO HIM" [i.e. said TO Jesus]. See also Andrew Schumacher's opening statement in his debate with Sean Griffin Here: https://youtu.be/ljaGlmu4XZU. It starts at 9:23, but the relevant part is at 13:15 where Andrew starts talking about the Jewish use of the possessive "our" or "my" with respect to God and its significance in the New Testament in calling Jesus OUR Lord [as well as here in John 20:28 "MY Lord and MY God.]. Andrew makes an interesting case that the possessive was reserved for Yahweh alone. In which case, this suggests or is at least very consistent with Jesus' full and proper Deity. 



- At 1:45:13 Sam says Jesus in Hebrews worships God. That's consistent with ALL [AFAIK] models of the Trinity without detriment to Christ's true and proper Deity. Then Sam says at 1:35:37 that Jesus is not worshipped anywhere in the New Testament. But Heb. 1:6 [in the very book under discussion!] commands Jesus is to be worshipped by the angels. As many [most?] scholars point out, based on the Greek of Heb. 1:6, that the author of Hebrews in this verse is clearly alluding to two places in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Old Testament [viz. Deut. 32:43 & Ps. 97:7]. Places where the angels and/or the members of the Divine Council are commanded to worship Yahweh. What can this be but an Old Testament command for the most exalted created creatures to give full-orbed WORSHIP [in the FULLEST sense] to Yahweh.  That these passages are applied to Jesus would be bewildering if Unitarianism were true and Jesus weren't proper/full Deity. It would be blasphemous. But the author of Hebrews doesn't even flinch or show any scruples in making such a connection and application. No hesitation, no reservation and no moral unease despite possible perceived IDOLATRY in the minds of his audience. The author(s) of Hebrews was likely a Second Temple Jew who wished to avoid any semblance of idolatry. And, as I understand it, while 2nd Temple Jews sometimes had exalted creatures as mediators [Metatron, Enoch, et al.], they almost never [or absolutely never] made the idolatrous mistake of directing worship to their mediators. 

 This fact, that the worship of Yahweh in Ps. 97:7 and Deut. 32:43 in the LXX is applied to Jesus, along with the Hebrews author in verses 10-12 applying Ps. 102 [which was originally about Yahweh] to Jesus ought to be near definitive proof of Jesus' proper/full Deity. The author not only seems to predicate Jesus as Yahweh, but also applies to Jesus the divine attributes of Yahweh described in Ps. 102 [immutability, eternality, Creatorship, & perpetual unfading ever "youthful" LIFE]. The common Unitarian rebuttal that it refers to the New Creation rather than the Original Creation seems to me patently Ad Hoc/contrived.


BTW, Sam is mostly correct about church history and Trinitarian history IN THIS VIDEO (not necessarily in other videos), but with his own bias. But he was fairly objective. Some Trinitarians are more biased on these subjects of history by comparison. I recommend reading Daniel Waterland's defenses of the Trinity. I've read most of what he's written on the subject of the Trinity and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND them. I've linked to his works on this Blog Here:
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/05/daniel-waterland-on-christs-divinity.html

A lot of people criticize Waterland for a number of things. But he's more reliable than his opponents claim. Don't just take someone's word against him.

Friday, April 11, 2025

Can The Son of God Be Both Eternally Generated By the Father And Also Self-Existent?

 
I'm reading Some Animadversions on Dr. Clarke's Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity by  John Edwards (1637-1716) [not to be confused with Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758)]. At about 68% of the way through [started around page 33 in some editions] I came across an interesting argument for Jesus' Self-Existence despite being Eternally Generated by the Father.

Some Animadversions on Dr. Clarke's Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity by John Edwards

A Supplement to the Animadversions on Dr. Clarke's Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity by John Edwards


So, I asked ChatGPT the following.

Given the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son from the Father, Christian theologian John Edwards [not to be confused with Jonathan Edwards] argued contrary to many church fathers that the Son could still be not only necessarily existent (as many of the fathers taught) but also self-existent like the Father (as many church fathers denied). Edwards argued in the following fashion. Tell me if you think if it makes any sense, or if it's nonsense or contradictory.

Edwards argued in the following way (paraphrased): Theologian John Edwards argued in the following manner given John 5:26. Where we see that what is said of the Father, is said of the Son, that is that they have both of them life in themselves: And without doubt the Son hath life in himself in the same sense and propriety that the Father hath life in himself. The essence and life of the Father are self-existent; therefore the essence and life of the Son are so too. The antecedent is evident. The consequence is as evident, for the life and essence of the Son and of the Father are the same, or they are not: If they be not the same, then the Father and the Son have different essences, and consequently are different Gods; Or if the essence be the same, it must be a self-existent essence and life, unless it can be proved, that self-existent essence and life, and non self-existent essence and life are the same. Meaning a contradiction.

But it will be objected, that in the text before mentioned it is said that this self-life is given. When the Son said "as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son to have life in himself" he plainly declares the absolute likeness of the Son to the Father, for the Son has life, just as the Father has life, namely, a natural and essential life of his own. This signifies the natural and essential procession from him. This giving does not imply that the Son had not that in himself which is said to be given by the Father. Though self-existence be given to the Son by the Father, yet it is a proper self-existence. It is no more a contradiction than the Father raising the Son from the dead, and the Son raising himself from the dead.

If it is the essential property of the Father to exist of himself, then the Son must have a self-existence, otherwise he has not the same essence with the Father. The Son is of himself, because he is of the Father whose essence is his, and that essence is self-existent. This is implied when Jesus said in John 14:10 "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me." Their existence is mutual and reciprocal and they are and subsist in one another; which is called perichoresis/circumincession. This follows from their being the same numerical substance: if one of the persons be self-existent, the other must be so too.  In Christ all the fullness of the deity dwells in bodily form. There can nothing belonging to the deity be lacking in Christ, and consequently not self-existence, which is of the very nature of the deity. Whence it follows, that the Son has his existence not only from his Father, but from himself. 
 
Someone might say, he that exists from another, does not exist from himself. But Edwards answers, that of finite and created being this is a true maxim; but it is not true concerning the infinite and uncreated Being of God. If we speak of beings of the former sort, it is supposed that he that exists from another was after the other, and it would be true. But when we speak of an eternal being or generation, it is otherwise, for then there is neither before or after. Wherefore, we must not argue from a corporeal and human generation to a spiritual and divine one, and such as was from eternity, for then we confound uncreated and eternal beings, with those that are created and finite. The Son was produced or generated out of the substance of the Father, but that substance did not exist before the production of the Son, for the production was from all eternity. the existence could not precede that generation, because they were both eternally together.

ChatGPT said:

This argument from John Edwards, as you've paraphrased it, is complex, but it appears internally coherent within the framework of a certain theological tradition, particularly in the context of classical Christian Trinitarianism. To evaluate whether it makes sense or is contradictory, let’s break down the key elements of his reasoning:

1. The Argument for Self-Existence of the Son

Edwards begins with the claim that John 5:26 (where Jesus says, “as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son also to have life in Himself”) teaches that the Son has "life in Himself" in the same way as the Father does. The claim Edwards makes is that the Son must have a self-existent life, just as the Father does, because their essence and life are the same. If the essence of the Father and the Son were different, then the Father and the Son would be two different gods, which Edwards would reject.

  • The Essence of the Father and Son are the Same: This is the core of Edwards' argument. He is asserting that if the Father and the Son have the same essence, then whatever is true of the Father (e.g., self-existence) must be true of the Son. The claim is that self-existence cannot be separated from divine essence. Therefore, if the Father is self-existent, the Son must be self-existent as well.

2. The Challenge of the "Giving" of Life

A significant part of Edwards' argument responds to the apparent contradiction in John 5:26, which says the Father grants the Son the ability to have life in Himself. At first glance, this seems to suggest that the Son did not have life in Himself before, which could imply that He is not self-existent in the same way the Father is.

  • Edwards' Response: Edwards argues that "giving" life to the Son does not negate the Son's self-existence. He draws a parallel to the resurrection of Christ, where the Father raises the Son, but that does not mean the Son is not capable of raising Himself. The act of "giving" life is not contradictory to the idea of self-existence because it pertains to the eternal generation, which does not imply temporal dependence or creation. The Son's self-existence is properly His, even if it is "given" to Him by the Father.

3. Eternal Generation and Perichoresis

Edwards moves on to discuss the doctrine of eternal generation, which posits that the Son is eternally generated by the Father. He also refers to the concept of perichoresis (mutual indwelling), where the Father and the Son are interpenetrating and mutually indwelling in each other. This means that the Father and the Son are so closely united that their existence is reciprocal.

  • Mutual Essence: Edwards argues that since the Father and Son share the same essence, if the Father is self-existent, the Son must be self-existent as well. There is no contradiction here, as he is distinguishing between the finite, temporal generation of creatures and the eternal, divine generation of the Son. The Son is not a created being, and the generation of the Son is not a temporal act, but an eternal and necessary one.

4. Objection and Answer to "Existence from Another"

One of the key objections Edwards anticipates is the idea that if the Son exists from the Father, He does not exist from Himself. Edwards counters this by noting that such reasoning only applies to finite, created beings. For an eternal being like the Son, the categories of "before" and "after" do not apply because the generation of the Son is eternal. The Son's generation is not a temporal event, but a timeless relationship of mutual existence within the divine nature.

Evaluation: Does It Make Sense? Is It Contradictory?

In the context of classical Christian Trinitarian theology, Edwards' argument is plausible and consistent. It hinges on a few foundational theological premises:

  1. The eternal generation of the Son: The Son is not created but eternally begotten by the Father.

  2. Perichoresis: The Father and Son are not two separate divine substances but one substance in which each person fully shares the essence.

  3. Self-existence of the divine essence: If the Father is self-existent, the Son, sharing the same essence, must also be self-existent.

If we accept these premises, Edwards' argument does not appear contradictory. He is drawing careful distinctions between temporal and eternal, finite and infinite realities. His rejection of the idea that "giving" life to the Son negates His self-existence aligns with the broader theological tradition, which often stresses the mystery of divine relations and how they differ from human understandings of generation and dependence.

However, it may be difficult to follow or accept without accepting these traditional theological concepts. The idea of eternal generation and perichoresis is not intuitively obvious and requires a certain metaphysical framework, which not everyone would share. For example, someone holding to a more unitarian or Arian understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son would find this reasoning problematic.

Conclusion

Edwards’ argument is coherent within a classical Trinitarian framework, especially when understood as distinguishing between the eternal, necessary relationships within the Godhead and the temporal, contingent relationships that govern created beings. It avoids contradictions by carefully navigating the distinction between the temporal language of "giving" life and the eternal, necessary self-existence of the Son. However, it may seem mysterious or even contradictory to those who do not accept the metaphysical foundations of traditional Trinitarianism.


Tuesday, April 8, 2025

Gavin Ortlund on John 10 and Jesus' Appeal to Ps. 82

 


The following video by Gavin Ortlund is his first response to the debate between Atheist Alex O'Connor and Christian apologist and philosopher David Wood. Below it is the link to the actual debate.

The KEY Point in the Alex O'Connor vs. David Wood Debate (The Divine Council in John 10)<

https://youtu.be/TJb_kw_FwgE?si=rHO2Hphf84E0TeVy



The actual debate:

DEBATE: Did Jesus Claim To Be God?

https://youtu.be/zbVeuKzRRrE?si=ZkHv9XwyG8T7csOT







Sunday, April 6, 2025

A Video Playlist of Mark's Christology by Exploring Reality

 

In a video by InspiringPhilosophy, Michael Jones recommended the following playlist of videos by Exploring Reality in proof of Jesus full and true Deity. See also my blogpost HERE.


 Mark's Christology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ76TRyjCoc&list=PLotwpY3OESFyFUWAmrsy9_rRoB0jr4VGV

 

 

Sunday, March 23, 2025

Answering Some Objections to Trinitarian Models That Affirm Jesus As The Angel of the LORD

 

The following is an objection to Trinitarian models that affirm that Jesus is the Angel of the LORD [Malak Yahweh] that I encountered on Facebook. Followed by my answers and solutions. Not all Trinitarians believe the Old Testament "Angel/Messenger of the LORD" is the pre-incarnate person who is Jesus in the New Testament. I DO believe and affirm it. 

Know (or Remember) that the word for "angel(s)" in the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New Testament just means "messenger." By itself, it doesn't tell us the metaphysical nature of the personal entity. Context can sometimes help us determine whether the messenger is human or a supernatural personal entity which we usually mean by an "angel." Like the angel Gabriel or the angel Michael [or even Satan]. So, it would be incorrect for a Non-Trinitarian to say that THE Angel of Yahweh must be a created being, or cannot be a second person in God (or within the Godhead, or of the Trinity). Trinitarians like myself and Anthony Rogers show that the best explanation for all the data on the Malak Yahweh is that He [whom we believe to be the Son] is fully divine as the one who sends/sent Him [the Father]. See Anthony Rogers' videos on YouTube. HERE is a link to his CHANNEL. He also has some excellent ARTICLES HERE.


The Non-Trinitarian wrote:

You and others like you believe that "the Angel of the LORD" is Jesus.  You do this because he's called "God" or "the LORD" in places, and then transpose divine attributes upon him, despite an obvious lack:


For one, HE CANNOT FORGIVE SINS: "he will not forgive your transgression, because My name is in him", i.e., he is only sent in God's name.


For two, HE DOESN'T KNOW ALL THINGS: "now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld your son, your only-begotten, from me", i.e., he didn't know Abraham's heart.


For three, HE DOESN'T ACCEPT THE WORSHIP OF CHRISTIANS: "see that you do not do it!  I am a fellow-servant or yours with your brothers, the prophets", i.e., as in Hebrews 1, where "angels" and "prophets" are used interchangeably.


Rather than using these concepts to show that the Son is greater than angels, Trinitarians, Oneness, and all deity-of-christ believers have mistakenly corrupted the knowledge of God in Jesus Christ --- because they didn't believe that these things God has given into the hand of Man. (Genesis 1:26; 9:6)


Here's my response:

.

//You and others like you believe that "the Angel of the LORD" is Jesus.  You do this because he's called "God" or "the LORD" in places, and then transpose divine attributes upon him, despite an obvious lack://

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I'll answer each objection in a new post. I don't have time for a debate.

//For one, HE CANNOT FORGIVE SINS: "he will not forgive your transgression, because My name is in him", i.e., he is only sent in God's name.//

Only God can forgive sins. So there would be no point in saying He won't forgive your sins, if He can't anyway. Rather, the fact that it says He won't forgive your sins implies that He can, but won't. I don't know about the Hebrew, but in English it doesn't say He cannot/can't, but He will not/won't. It says He will not BECAUSE the Father's name is in Him. If your interpretation were correct, it ought to say He can't forgive sins because Yahweh's name IS NOT in Him. The passage is saying something similar to Exo. 34:7 which says of Yahweh, "...forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, BUT WHO WILL BY NO MEANS CLEAR THE GUILTY..." God could forgive, but all things being equal, God won't clear the guilty. The good news of the Gospel is that things are no longer equal in that God [through the cross] did something that makes universal forgiveness possible to all who will repent and believe the Gospel. Also having God's name in Him means He has God's nature and presence, which implies full deity. Because "name" can mean nature, character and attributes. That's why the Jews were careful with what name they chose for their children, because it would/may affect and reflect his destiny. It's also why Ps. 9:10 says:

Psalm 9:10 ESV
[10] And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Meaning, those who know God's character, attributes and nature put their trust in Him because by knowing those things they also know His a reliable source of help and blessing. It's not about knowing the mere spelling and pronunciation of a word.

Similarly notice Prov. 30:4

Proverbs 30:4 ESV
[4] Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!

The verse is not asking whether you know the spelling and pronunciation of the word YHWH. They are Jews. They already know it. It's rhetorically asking who among you knows and fully grasps the incomprehensible nature of Yahweh? The implied answer is no one. While Yahweh can be truly *Apprehended* in the creaturely mind, His nature cannot be exhaustively *Comprehended*.  Then when it asks whether you know the name of the Son, it's implying the Son's nature cannot be exhaustively comprehended either. Implying His sharing the same nature as His Father.

Matthew 11:27 ESV
[27] All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

This verse [paralleled in Luke 10:22] implies the incomprehensibility of both the Father and the Son, and therefore the equal Divinity of both. Since only what is divine is absolutely incomprehensible to creatures; and only what is divine can comprehend that which is incomprehensible in that uniquely divine way. That only the Father can comprehend the Son, implies the Son's inomprehensibility [to all creatures], and therefore implying the Son's full deity. That the Son can comprehend the infinite incomprehensibility [to creatures] of God the Father implies the Son is not a creature, but is as fully divine as the Father. That's also why 1 Cor. 2:10-11 & Rom. 8:27 teaches the full Divinity and personhood of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11 ESV
[10] these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. [11] For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:27 ESV
[27] And he who searches hearts knows what is the MIND OF THE SPIRIT,  because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Some might give the following objection. That there are a number of places in the Old Testament where Yahweh talks about His name [in the sense of "presence"] being "there" in a location like a city or a temple/building [e.g. 1 Ki. 8:16, 29; 9:3; 11:36; 2 Ki. 23:27; 2 Chron. 6:5-6; Neh. 1:9]. That that doesn't prove that the city or building is God. How can a city be God?!?!? So why should the name Yahweh within the Angel of the LORD prove that that Messenger is equally  God? But that presupposes that the presence of God in the temple or city isn't the person of the Holy Spirit. If it is, then that fits with the full Deity of both the Son and Spirit. The Name of Yahweh is shared by all three persons of the Trinity.

Matthew 28:19 ESV
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice it doesn't say in the nameS [plural], but in the name [singular]. Notice too that in the Greek it has the definite article "the" for each one mentioned. That the word "name" is singular affirms equality and a shared nature, as well as the genuine personhood of each. That the definite article is used of each precludes Modalism or Oneness theology. It does NOT say "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" which would better fit with Modalism or Oneness. But rather it says "of THE Father, and of THE Son, and of THE Holy Spirit" which better fits with Trinitarianism.


BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB


//For two, HE DOESN'T KNOW ALL THINGS: "now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld your son, your only-begotten, from me", i.e., he didn't know Abraham's heart.//

This objection doesn't work for the following reasons. Does Gen. 11:5 imply that Yahweh is not omniscient because He had to come down to the Tower of Babel to see what's happening? Or what about when Yahweh had to visit Sodom and Gomorrah to see what was happening? Does it disprove Yahweh's omniscience? Obviously not.

Genesis 11:5 ESV
[5] And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 

Genesis 18:20-21 ESV
[20] Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, [21] I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”

The phrase "according to the outcry that has come to me" makes it clear that Yahweh is speaking [from a Trinitarian perspective this is talking about either the Father, or possibly the Son who is the Angel of the LORD]. Since it is to absolute Deity that sins are an ultimate offense toward/against.

Also, when it says "now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld your son," it doesn't refer to a lack of knowledge. Since God's tests and trials are often likened to the refining of metals through fire. Not only does the fire reveal what's there, it purifies and improves what's there. So, it didn't exist in that form prior. Before Abraham was tested by being commanded to sacrifice his son, his faith hadn't yet risen to the point it eventually did after passing the test. That's why NOW [at THAT time] the Angel can know it, because that kind of faith and commitment didn't exist beforehand/prior. See Prov. 17:3; Ps. 66:10; Isa. 48:10; Zech. 13:9; Jam. 1:12.

Proverbs 17:3 ESV
[3] The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts.

Psalm 66:10 ESV
[10] For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.

James 1:12 ESV
[12] Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Zechariah 13:9 ESV
[9] And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

Isaiah 48:10 ESV
[10] Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.

I've also written two blogposts on Jesus' omniscience here:

Jesus' Omniscience 

Does Mark 13:32 Disprove Jesus' Omniscience?


CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

//For three, HE DOESN'T ACCEPT THE WORSHIP OF CHRISTIANS: "see that you do not do it!  I am a fellow-servant or yours with your brothers, the prophets", i.e., as in Hebrews 1, where "angels" and "prophets" are used interchangeably.//

That's not Jesus speaking in Rev. 19:10. That's clear if you read the entire verse. Nor is it Jesus speaking in Rev. 22:8-9.

Revelation 19:10 ESV
[10] Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers WHO HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jesus does receive worship from Christians and angels.

Hebrews 1:6, which is about angels worshipping Jesus, is a quotation and allusion to the Septuagint's Greek translation of Deut. 32:43 and Ps. 97:7. These passages are about how all spiritual and supernatural entities ought to worship Yahweh, yet it is surprisingly applied to Jesus. Something which would be blasphemous if Jesus isn't fully absolute Deity. Unitarians should have a major problem with this verse.

Similarly, in Phil. 2:10-11 Paul takes what is arguably the most monotheistic Verse in the most monotheistic Chapter in the entire Old Testament and applies it, and its teaching about worshipping Yahweh, TO JESUS! This would again be blasphemous if Jesus isn't absolutely divine as the Father is. The type of bowing was the kind reserved for the one true God. The kind forbidden in Rev. 19:10 and 22:8-9. The kind that God condemned when it was directed toward Baal.

Romans 11:4 ESV
[4] But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”


See also my blogpost:

Praying to and Worshipping the Holy Spirit

Philippians 2:10-11 ESV
[10] so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, in heaven AND ON EARTH and under the earth, [11] and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isaiah 45:23 ESV
[23] By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘TO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

The worship of the post-resurrection and post-ascension Jesus in Luke 24:52 and John 20:28 goes beyond mere obeisance.

Luke 24:52 ESV
[52] And THEY WORSHIPED HIM and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 20:28 ESV
[28] Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 

Notice Thomas answered "Him" [i.e. Jesus]. Thomas wasn't addressing God the Father. Also, the use "my Lord and my God" is like Ps. 35:23, but in reverse [the words are switched]. The use of the possessive "my" and "our" in relation to a elohim/theos/God was reserved by Jews for Yahweh alone. Yet Thomas called Jesus "MY God."


//Rather than using these concepts to show that the Son is greater than angels, Trinitarians, Oneness, and all deity-of-christ believers have mistakenly corrupted the knowledge of God in Jesus Christ --- because they didn't believe that these things God has given into the hand of Man. (Genesis 1:26; 9:6) //


This doesn't really need a reply.