Tuesday, December 14, 2021

Is Christ's Nature Contradictory? James Anderson vs. Jc Beall

 


Is Christ's Nature Contradictory? James Anderson vs. Jc Beall
https://youtu.be/HQHOcubDs6E





I'm surprised that both Jc [at 36:37] and James [at 43:51] described the hypostatic union as Jesus being "fully God, and fully man." That's a common layman's description that I myself used for years, but precise theologians have pointed out that the correct way to put it is "truly God, and truly man" [vera Deus, vera homo]. Or truly man, and truly God [vera homo, vera Deus]. Because if Jesus were fully man [or 100% man], there would be no room for him to be Deity. Conversely, if Jesus were fully Divine [or 100% Divine], then there'd be no room for His humanity. I suspect that James knows the more precise phrase is "truly God and truly man," but that he used "fully" so as not to embarrass Jc.

Here's William Lane Craig correcting an audience member on this topic already cued up here:


Here's R.C. Sproul correcting John MacArthur on this topic:





Sunday, December 12, 2021

A New Approach to the Divinity of Jesus by Mikel Del Rosario

 

Mikel Del Rosario responds to common historical objections to Jesus' Divinity popularized by folks like Bart Ehrman. 

A New Approach to the Divinity of Jesus
https://youtu.be/R9n4seBg1JQ





Saturday, December 4, 2021

Does the Trinity Make Sense? A Debate Between Chris Date vs Muslim Metaphysician

 

A great debate between Christian Chris Date and Muslim Jake Brancatella [AKA "Muslim Maetaphysician"]. The debate makes reference to a video Chris Date made prior to the debate. I've also  linked to a video that's probably the one that they're referring to.


Does the Trinity Make Sense? A Debate Between Chris Date vs Muslim Metaphysician
https://youtu.be/tTGViH-mM7Y






In the the episode below, Chris offered what he thinks is a logically coherent and orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, in anticipation of his debate with Jake Brancatella linked above:

Theopologetics 028: Can an Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity Be Logically Coherent?
https://youtu.be/6WJ-mdKdNFo




Tuesday, November 16, 2021

David Wood Addresses the Islamic Objection to the Trinity of "1 + 1 + 1 = 1"

 

Philosopher and apologist Dr. David Wood addresses the common objection to the Trinity that many people give, including atheists, Unitarians, and especially Muslims. The objection is that the doctrine of the Trinity implies "1 + 1 + 1 = 1".


The Question No Christian Can Answer





Wednesday, November 3, 2021

Why Do Trinitarian Prooftexts Have "So Many Problems"?

 

The following is a question posed to me by a/an Unitarian.

//Ok so it’s not a proof text. Have you noticed almost every if not* every potential trinitarian proof has a textual problem, translational issue, or can be interpreted differently in a reasonable way. Isn’t that kind of odd?//

That's a really good question. A genuinely fair question for a Unitarian to ask, and one which DESERVES an answer by Trinitarians. It mustn't be dismissed or waved away as if unimportant. I'll write this blogpost as if I were addressing this Unitarian personally. So, I'll sometimes use "you" to refer to him. 

This is kind of like the question, "Is the glass half empty, or half full?" In one sense it's subjective, and in another sense, it's objective. The amount of water inside the glass is objective, but how one sees it is subjective. I think the glass is nearly full in terms of Trinitarianism, even if it's not to the brim or overflowing. I'll eventually answer the question directly. However, first I want to say that that question, in isolation, by itself lends toward subjectivity. However, given the overall Biblical data, I believe the issues are more objective and definite, as I'll attempt to show below. Also, your question, by itself, doesn't address even more pressing questions, issues and oddness/oddities.

This blogpost will deal with the rational WHY of "so many problems." Rather than dealing with answering those specific problems individually. I've done that in other blogposts. 

The original Unitarian's question was about the oddness of there being so many "textual problem[s], translational issue[s]" and why they "can be interpreted differently in...reasonable way[s]." Regarding "ODDNESS," I find other things much more odd [as I'll explain below]. Number one, that there should even be any debate about this if Unitarianism were true. Idolatry is THE MOST serious sin in the Old Testament [OT] and New Testament [NT]. The first two Commandments prohibit it. I myself used to be a Unitarian and became a Trinitarian circa 1993.

If Unitarianism were true I would expect there to be clear cut Biblical teaching that Jesus isn't God. That He's a mere creature. That the Bible would distance Jesus from Yahweh as much as possible. Lest it give the wrong and idolatrous impression. That He shouldn't be worshiped, yet the NT teaches He should be [Heb. 1:6 cf. the LXX in Ps. 97:7 & Deut. 32:43, passim]. That Jesus shouldn't be included in the Shema as Paul nevertheless does in 1 Cor. 8:6, as many NT scholars generally acknowledge as a sort of consensus [compare this speculative article HERE]. That it wouldn't be the case that the [arguably] most monotheistic verse in the most monotheistic chapter in the entire Hebrew Scriptures would be applied to Jesus. Yet is it [vide Isa. 45:23 with  Phil. 2:10-11]. That Jesus, a good Jew, would avoid every appearance of possibly claiming to be God as John 8:58 at the very least suggests [I personally think more than suggests]. That the writer of Revelation, and Jesus Himself, would avoid identifying Him with the Isaiahic divine title of "first and last." That the writer wouldn't given the impression that Jesus is the speaker in Rev. 22:12-13 who calls Himself by the three divine titles, 1. "the Alpha and the Omega," 2. "the first and the last," 3. "the beginning and the end." That Jesus wouldn't be called "blessed God"  as it strongly appears Paul did in Rom. 9:5. Even skeptic Bart Ehrman changed his mind and now thinks it does. More oddities...

Were Unitarianism true, I would expect the Angel of Yahweh wouldn't speak as if He Himself were Yahweh [see Judges 2; and Anthony Rogers' videos, debates and written materials on the subject]. I would expect the Old Testament wouldn't use plural nouns, plural pronouns, plural verbs, plural adverbs, and plural adjectives for God. Yet it does. Even the word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”, and Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”. Both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew. Shouldn't God have inspired the authors to only use singular nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs, and adjectives to refer to the Deity? I wouldn't expect Jesus & NT writers to teach devotion to Him ought to be on par with devotion to His Father and that there is no devotion to the Father apart from Him Yet the NT does (vide John 5:23; 14:1; 3:36; 1 John 2:22-23; 5:12; 1 Cor. 8:6; Matt. 28:19). I would expect the Unpardonable Sin to be against the Father alone. I would expect the author of 1 John 5:20, in order to protect the majesty of the Father, would consciously avoid ambiguous wording such that it couldn't possibly be referring to the Son as "true God." I would expect Jesus not to be associated with being active in the process of creation as the NT nevertheless does several times. I wouldn't expect the Danielic Son of Man to ride the clouds since that was a prerogative of deities in Semitic cultures. Effectively portraying two divine figures in the chapter. I wouldn't expect OT phraseology and reverence to Yahweh would be applied to Jesus like [e.g. inter alia] "fear of the LORD/YHWH" and "Day of the Lord/YHWH" applied to Jesus as the NT does. I would find it odd that the worship of Yahweh is often associated with 3 invocations as the Shema's 3 references to God. As the Aaronic Blessing does. As the trihagion does in its "holy, holy, holy" or Paul's "ONE Spirit...ONE Lord...ONE God" in Eph. 4:4-6; or Paul's "SAME Spirit...SAME Lord...SAME God" in 1 Cor. 12:4-6. I wouldn't expect the many Triadic references to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as I do see.
 More oddities...

Some Unitarians pray to Jesus, some don't. Some Unitarians worship Jesus, some don't. The Jehovah's Witnesses have flip flopped back and forth on whether Jesus should be worshipped. Were Unitarianism true, I wouldn't expect Jesus to be prayed to, called upon and invoked, yet He is [e.g. 2 Cor. 12:8; Acts 1:24ff.; 1 Cor. 1:2, Rom. 10:13, Acts 2:21 cf. Joel 3:23;  passim]. Or bowed down to in worship as is forbidden to idols and creatures [Rom. 11:4; Acts 10:26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8-8 compare with Phil. 2:10-11; Rev. 5:13-14 passim]. Why is "bowing the knee" to Baal is forbidden [Rom. 11:4; 1 Ki. 19:18], yet "bowing the knee" to Jesus is REQUIRED [Phil. 2:10-11] for salvation? Especially since "bowing the knee" in a religious contexts seems to be an idiom used by the Biblical writers for absolute worship of The Deity as applied to Yahweh or Baal [or any other pagan deity]. I wouldn't expect "ha adon," which is used exclusively of Almighty God, to be applied to Jesus as it is in Mal. 3:1. I would expect the NT to reserve "ho theos" to the Father alone, yet it applies it to Jesus in John 10:28 and Matt. 1:23. I wouldn't expect "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody" would be directed at the Lord Jesus as Eph. 5:19 does in a way paralleling what is to be done to God in Col. 3:16. I would expect the NT to warn people about accidentally applying phrases in the OT Psalms to Jesus. Like, "Make sure you don't apply 'hallelujah' [which means "praise be to Yah"] to Jesus." Yet, Paul repeatedly applies OT YHWH passages to Jesus, like Ps. 68:18 is in Eph. 4:8. Out of the 45 times Paul quotes/cites an Old Testament passage that involves the use of kurios to translate the divine name YHWH, 33 times he applies it to Christ and only 12 times to the Father. That's 75% of the time, and three times as often than to the Father. More oddities...

I wouldn't expect Jesus to be an analog to the OT temple as He often is, since the temple is where Yahweh dwellsI would expect that if Unitarianism were true, that OT Yahweh passages wouldn't be applied to Jesus, and even if they were there would always be an explicitly stated qualification saying Jesus is only agentivally/representationally Yahweh [see my blogpost HERE on this phenomena].

I wouldn't expect any case for the personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit would be possible. Nor that the Holy Spirit would call Himself "Me" and "I" as He does in Acts 13:2. I wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to have a mind, will and emotions. Yet, Paul talks about "the mind of the Spirit" in Rom. 8:27; about the will of the Holy Spirit who apportions spiritual gifts to individuals "as He wills" 1 Cor. 12:11; and of the Holy Spirit having emotions like being grieved in Eph. 4:30. See my main blogpost on the Holy Spirit for more evidences here:

The Full Deity of the Holy Spirit
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-full-deity-of-holy-spirit.html

I wouldn't expect Jesus' walking on water to be clearly portrayed as theophanic. I wouldn't expect Mark, the earliest Gospel written, would mimic Old Testament theophanies when describing Jesus' miraculous walking on water. See the videos linked HERE:

All the above issues seem [to use your term] more "odd" to me were Unitarianism true, than the fact that *some* Trinitarian prooftexts have "textual problem[s], translational issue[s], or can be interpreted differently in a reasonable way." That *some* do so, doesn't mean most do so. In fact, most don't. I could have listed more oddities against Unitarianism and in favor of Trinitarianism, but those are a good sample. More can be found from all of my other blogposts in this Blog.

What makes all this ODDNESS so troubling is that it makes it difficult to know how to relate to Jesus and the Holy Spirit if Unitarianism were true.  This isn't a theoretical/abstract problem. It strikes at the very heart of what it means to live the Christian life. As I said, the Jehovah's Witnesses themselves have flip flopped back and forth on whether Jesus is to be worshipped. I experienced this very problem when I was a Unitarian. It REALLY BOTHERED ME. I didn't know how to relate to Jesus. Was I to worship him, or not? If not, am I accidentally giving him too much honor? If I am to worship Him, in what way? To what degree? Am I worshipping Him in the wrong way? Or if the right way, is it too much? What exactly is the difference between "honor" and "worship" regarding God and Jesus and am I distributing them correctly? There's always the fear of committing idolatry and of diverting devotion that belongs to God ALONE away to Christ. Why is it that the OT strongly emphasizes only Almighty God is to be worshipped, yet Jesus is worshipped in the NT? In fact, humans, angels and every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them are all enjoined to worship Jesus [Rev. 5:13-14]. Why is there this seeming contradiction and discrepancy between the Old Testament and New Testament? I don't find Unitarian Dale Tuggy's explanation AT ALL satisfactory. Contrary to Tuggy, it seems to me that in consistent Unitarianism that takes the sin of idolatry seriously, one has to somehow have a heart with precisely divided and calibrated devotion between God and Jesus. God would seem to be contradicting Himself in Tuggy's resolution. In the OT God forbids creature worship, yet in the NT God contradicts His most important OT commandment by commanding the worship of a mere human. This is worse than if Jesus were a semi-god as in Semi-Arianism or Arianism. Trinitarianism disposes of all that and the entire problem as a whole "in one fell swoop." Because if Jesus is fully Divine as the Father is, then one doesn't have to worship Jesus with any reservation. You couldn't worship Jesus too much. But you can lavish Him with all and as much honor, praise and love as one can and wants/desires. As per the commandment to Love one's God (Yahweh) with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength. When I first went into an Evangelical church (circa 1993). I was irritated by how Christocentric the preaching, theology and worship was. Then I re-read the NT and saw that that same Christocentrism was there in the New Testament all along

You mention textual problems. Most of the prooftexts don't have textual problems. The most well known that do include ones like Zech 12:10; 1 Tim. 3:16; 1 John 5:7; John 3:13; Jude 1:5; Acts 20:28; Rev. 1:11. Some of those are clear interpolations, but I'm willing to concede all of them as useless for the sake of argument because the case for Trinitarianism doesn't hinge on these, but on many other passages that don't have textual problems.

Moreover, I don't think that the prooftexts are as subjective as you claim when it comes to interpretation and/or translation. I believe that most of them have stronger arguments in favor of Trinitarianism than for Unitarianism. It seems to me that Unitarians often reject Trinitarian interpretations on theological grounds, rather than exegetical grounds. That is, it's often due to their theological biases and presuppositions which causes them difficulty in accepting the Trinitarian interpretations. That's not to say that Trinitarians don't have their own biases and agendas. Of course we do too. We all bring our presuppositions to the text no matter how hard we try [and ought to try] to be objective.

But I would argue that the Trinitarian position does better at making sense of the entire scope of the Biblical data. Whereas Unitarianism doesn't, but must use ad hoc arguments to explain away the more probable Trinitarian interpretations. For example, the data points and oddities I listed above and gave links to. I believe the Trinitarian position is better abductively, in that it has the greatest explanatory power and explanatory scope, using inference to the best explanation. I also think that it is Unitarians who must do more dodging, dancing and eisegetical gymnastics when dealing with Trinitarian prooftexts, rather than Trinitarians when dealing with Unitarian prooftexts.

For example, John 6:62 to me clearly teaches the personal pre-existence of Jesus coming down from heaven given the context of the chapter where Jesus repeatedly refers to how He is analogous to the manna that came down from heaven. In John 6:62 Jesus uses a Greek word for "before." It's not supplied by the Translators. It's actually there in the Greek. Yet humanitarian Unitarian interpretations are wildly "fantastic" [in the negative sense]. For example, one Unitarian Bible commentary HERE, teaches that Jesus is referring to His future resurrection. I get the sense that the author of the commentary and translation is scrambling to find a solution because he feels the oppressive weight of the interpretation of a personal pre-existence of Jesus in John 6:62. More passages in John for pre-existence HERE. That Jesus isn't taught to be involved in the Original Creation and/or creation of angelic beings in John 1:1; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:10ff. seems clearly ad hoc to me. That Heb. 1:10ff. refers to the New Creation as some Unitarians claim, rather than the Original Creation seems ad hoc. That John 1:1ff. doesn't refer to the Genesis creation is ad hoc. See the blog HERE which shows the parallel between John 1:1ff. and Gen. 1. Examples could be multiplied.

Back to the analogy of the question of whether the glass is half empty or half full. I admit that different Trinitarian prooftexts have different evidential weight and that some aren't as strong as others. To use an analogy, some are half a pound, some 5 pounds, some 20 pounds, some 80 pounds, some 95 pounds etc. When put together, they all have cumulative weight in favor of Trinitarianism. Carrying 2 two pound stones is easy. Carrying 500 two pound stones is hard. The cumulative weight of the evidence of Trinitarianism converted me from Unitarianism to Trinitarianism.

But even those weaker data points and prooftexts, when seen in light of the stronger ones, makes it such that it can sometimes tip the scales in favor of the Trinitarian interpretation of the weaker ones. Though, saying it this way could sound like I'm doing the very thing that I accused Unitarians of. Namely, using one's theological bias in their interpretation of a passage. Let me also say it this way then. At least it makes it more plausible that the Trinitarian interpretations of the weaker prooftexts are more likely given the overall drift and bent of the Scriptural evidence. This is part of the abductive approach to theology I was talking about. Given different hypotheses, some hypotheses better explain all of the data, as well as better explain the seemingly disconfirmatory or ambiguous passages. Even making the ambiguous passages less ambiguous. In a crime scene a certain data point G might not directly point to any particular suspect, but if a lot of evidence points to suspect X, then sometimes data point G makes much more sense if suspect X were the guilty party rather than suspect R. That is, when data point G is seen in light of the cumulative evidence against suspect X. A similar phenomenon is true regarding Biblical prooftext for any doctrine. I also think that the disconfirmatory evidence against Unitarianism is more numerous, more pervasive, more central and weightier/heavier than those against Trinitarianism.


Related to your original question, one could ask, "Why isn't the Trinity clearer in the Bible if it's true?"

Here are a number of speculative reasons:

- I believe that belief in Jesus' full and true Deity is a normative belief necessary for salvation according to the NT's clear teaching. See my quick arguments HERE

But I don't believe it's an absolutely necessary requirement to believe it or of the full and true Deity of the Holy Spirit in order for one to be saved. There are extenuating circumstances. Maybe part of the reason why God didn't make the Trinity more clear in the Bible is because it would immediately be rejected and dismissed as polytheistic by some people who don't take the time to seriously read and study the Bible. And given the prima facie concept of monotheism without all of the Bible's teachings and qualifications. In this way, God may sort of lower the epistemic bar for salvation in order not to minimize the numbers of people saved who don't have the aptitude, or time, or opportunity to study these issues. [Though, as a Calvinist, I deny that God purposes to maximize it to the highest extent He can. But predestination is an in-house debate among Christians and shouldn't take a center stage or usurp attention from the main issues. So, I'll leave that point there.]

- It also might be the case that the Bible less directly teaches the Trinity due to the mystery and incomprehensibility of the Trinity. Given that God is so great and transcendent, we shouldn't expect to be able to grasp the nature of God exhaustively. We can truly apprehend God, but we cannot exhaustively comprehend God. So, God reveals what finite creatures can apprehend bit by bit in progressive revelation incrementally from OT to NT. I suspect that at the Eschaton when Jesus returns we will receive even more revelation about the Triune nature of God. But I doubt we'll ever fully grasp God's nature and essence in its entirety.

- Another reason why God might not have more clearly taught the Trinity in the Bible is because of God's providential purpose in history for the church to gradually grow in its doctrinal understanding of God's truth based on the Scriptures, as is taught in 1 Cor. 11:19 and Eph. 4. Before the return of Christ, Paul seems to teach and/or unintentionally prophesy that the church will gradually grow up in doctrine, practice and holiness. "...[S]o that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish" (Eph. 5:27).

1 Cor. 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

Eph. 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.


Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.


- See also my blogpost Why Isn't the Bible Clearer?


Micah 5:2 And Excerpts from Various Sources

The following is adapted from a Trinitarian response I gave to a Unitarian on Facebook regarding Micah 5:2.

The Hebrew of Micah 5:2 isn't so clear that we can certainly say whether it's everlasting or whether it had an origination in time. Isaiah 9:6 refers to the messiah as "father of eternity" ["Everlasting Father" in the KJV]. It has the meaning of "possessor of (the attribute of) eternity." That's more in keeping with an eternal origination, rather than an origination that began at a finite time ago in the distant past. 


Robert Morey states in his book "The Trinity: Evidences and Issues" on page 312:

//Micah 5:2 is an example of Hebrew parallelism in which the second phrase expands upon and goes beyond the first phrase to deepen its meaning. In this sense, you go from the lesser to the greater as you proceed from the first phrase to the second phrase. It is a classic example of climactic parallelism. 

The first word [HEBREW] "long ago" is found many times in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament and has several different meanings depending on the context. When used geographically, it refers to east as opposed to west (i.e., Isa. 9:12; Ezek. 25:10). When used chronologically, it means "before" (i.e., Prov. 8:22). It is also used to describe the eternity of God in (Deut. 33:27; Ps. 74:12; Hab. 1:12).

Since Micah is using climactic parallelism, he begins by saying that the "goings forth" of the Messiah took place "a very long time ago." How far back "his goings forth" goes is determined by the words of the second phrase. 

The Hebrew word [HEBREW] "eternity" used in the second phrase, is found in the Old Testament 420 times. Langenscheidt defines it as:

time immemorial, time past, eternity, distant future, duration, everlasting time, pl. ages, endless time.


All the standard Hebrew Lexicons and grammars agree with Langenscheidt. It is a word which was used to contrast one thing to another. The mountains are seemingly "everlasting" when contrasted with the brief life span of man (Hab. 3:6). But when used of God in such places as Psalms 90:2, it means that He is eternal in contrast to the universe which had a beginning and will have an end.

In Micah 5:2, the prophet emphasizes that the Messiah not only pre-existed "a long time ago," but He has in fact existed "from eternity!" In Lange's Commentary, Kleinnert pointed out that Micah's use of the word [HEBREW] "gives a strict proof of the antemundane life of the Messiah." Laetsch's Commentary states that [HEBREW] here means "the timeless eons of eternity."


A Liberal Objection Answered


Some liberal commentators have attempted to reduce "the days of eternity"  to just "a long time ago." But this is grammatically faulty because they are going backwards. In this kind of parallelism, you go from the lesser to the greater and not the other way around.  Thus, the parallelism in Micah 5:2 reveals that the Messiah was "from a long time ago," i.e., "from days of eternity." //

-Morey, The Trinity: Evidence and Issues




 [I've heard that] If the author wanted to refer to an everlasting origination, then he used the only Hebrew words and phrasing available to him to mean that. Also, there are some Hebrew authorities who do think it more likely refers to an everlasting origination, even though there is technically no specific Hebrew term for it.


See also the following commentaries here:

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/micah/5-2.htm


Benson Commentary states:

//Whose goings forth have been of old from everlasting — Hebrew, מימי עולם מקדם, rendered by the LXX., απ αχης, εξ ημεων αιωνος; and exactly in the same sense by the Vulgate, ab initio, a diebus æternitatis, from the beginning, from the days of eternity. So these Hebrew expressions must of necessity signify in divers places of Scripture, being used to signify the eternity of God: see Psalm 55:19; Psalm 90:2; Proverbs 8:23; Habakkuk 1:12. The words naturally import an original, distinct from the birth of Christ mentioned in the foregoing sentence, which original is here declared to be from all eternity.//


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary states:

//goings forth … from everlasting—The plain antithesis of this clause, to "come forth out of thee" (from Beth-lehem), shows that the eternal generation of the Son is meant. The terms convey the strongest assertion of infinite duration of which the Hebrew language is capable (compare Ps 90:2; Pr 8:22, 23; Joh 1:1). Messiah's generation as man coming forth unto God to do His will on earth is from Beth-lehem; but as Son of God, His goings forth are from everlasting. //


The famous OT commentary Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament states:

//The future Ruler of Israel, whose goings forth reach back into eternity, is to spring from the insignificant Bethlehem, like His ancestor, king David.//




see also:

Christ’s Origin? Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Study of Micah 5:2 

http://www.doorwaychristianoutreach.info/439585463




Michael L. Brown holds a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University and has served as a visiting or adjunct professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary, Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (Charlotte), Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Fuller Theological Seminary, Denver Theological Seminary, the King’s Seminary, and Regent University School of Divinity. 

Michael Brown has almost 3 page addressing Micah 5:2 in volume 3 of his "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus." Here's an excerpt of pages 38-40:

//... Which translation is right? It comes down to the rendering of the Hebrew phrase describing the nature of the Messiah's origins, miqedem mi-yemey ‘olam. The first word simply means "from of old" and is used elsewhere in Micah to refer back to God's promises to the patriarchs, which he made "from days of qedem" (Micah 7:20, rendered in the King James with "from the days of old"). The next two words, however, would most naturally be translated "from eternity" (literally from "days of eternity"), unless context indicated a translation of "from ancient days" (in other words, way back in the very distant past). In most cases in the Scriptures, ‘olam clearly means eternity, as in Psalm 90:2, where God's existence is described as me‘olam we‘ad‘olam, "from eternity to eternity" (cf. NJPSV). There are, however, some cases where ‘olam cannot mean "eternal" but rather "for a long time" (either past or present). How then does Micah use the word?

In Micah 2:9; 4:5, 7, ‘olam clearly means "forever," as commonly rendered in both Jewish and Christian versions. This would point clearly to a similar rendering just a few verses later in 5:2[1]. In Micah 7:14, however, the expression "as in the days of ‘olam" is used in a non-eternal sense, the whole verse being translated in the King James with, "Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old." This indicates we cannot be dogmatic about the translation of Micah 5:2[1], since the context allows for an "eternal" or merely "ancient" meaning...... [Then after about four paragraphs that I'll skip over because it's too long for me to type up, Michael Brown states].......So then, Micah 5:2[1] can also be understood as pointing to the Messiah's eternal nature, undergirding our reading of Isaiah 9:6[5] as pointing to the Messiah's divinity."

[[I typed up the quotations from Morey and Brown myself. I apologize if there are any typos in the quotations. Also, some Hebrew words were used and instead of reproducing them, I just typed [HEBREW] because I don't know the Hebrew language and so couldn't reproduce them.]] 

The article I linked to above make some interesting points, including the fact that "goings forth" in the Hebrew is plural, not singular. Why plural? The article has its own explanation. Maybe it's right. But I wonder and speculate that maybe the first phrase that Morey talks about in the quote I gave might refer to Jesus' origin as to His human nature which has a finite past in His human ancestry, while the second phrase might refer to Jesus' origin as to His divine nature which is from everlasting/eternity. Similar to how Rom. 9:5 refers to both Jesus' human and divine natures.

 

Thursday, October 28, 2021

Answering Unitarian Understandings of Jesus' Statement "I Said You are gods" in John 10 by Anthony Rogers

 

Unitarians often appeal to John 10:34ff. to argue that Jesus was denying being Yahweh or equal with Yahweh and the Father. In the following video my favorite Trinitarian living defender Anthony Rogers addresses their arguments and instead shows how Jesus IS claiming to be Yahweh and equal with His Father. He actually starts getting into the topic around 20 minutes and 30 seconds. 


"I Said, You are gods" (John 10); Live Q&A
https://youtu.be/w3AVXWKBoBs



Thursday, October 14, 2021

Thursday, October 7, 2021

Some Unitarians Pray to Jesus

 

As a Trinitarian myself, I find it a bit humorous that it's a long standing debate among various Unitarian factions and sects as to whether it is permissible and/or required to pray to Jesus, or whether it is absolutely forbidden. This is one of the areas in versions of Unitarianism which accept the New Testament that reveals their instability.

A popular Unitarian Bible translation and commentary is the Revised English Version. In one of their appendices they argue that Jesus can be prayed to. Here is the link:

Appendix 15. Can We Pray to Jesus?



Another area of instability is whether Jesus is or isn't to be worshipped. The Jehovah's Witnesses have flip flopped on this issue. The following is taken from this webpage HERE

//Worship of Jesus is OK?

1879 "His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'" (C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the original)

1880 "He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born king... He never reproved any for acts of worship offered to Himself... Had Christ not been more than man the same reason would have prevented Him from receiving worship." (Watchtower Reprints, 1, Oct., 1880, p. 144).

1898 "Question... Was he really worshipped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so... It was proper for our Lord to receive worship..." (Watchtower Reprints, 111, July 15, 1898, p. 2337).

1915 "As the special messenger of the Covenant, whom the Father had sanctified and sent into the world to redeem the world, and whom the Father honored in every manner, testifying, 'This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased' - it was eminently proper that all who beheld his glory, as the glory of an Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, should reverence him, hear him, obey him, and worship him - do him homage - as the representative of the Father." (At-One-Ment Between God And Man, 1899; 1915 ed.; p. 134)

1945 "Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship him must also bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that organization, namely Christ Jesus, his co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." (Watchtower, Oct 15, 1945)

1945 "The purposes of this Society are: ... public Christian worship of Almighty God and Jesus Christ; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship..." (Charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania, Article II, Feb 27, 1945 [the 1969 Yearbook quotes Article II of the Charter, "and for public Christian worship of Almighty God...." leaving off the original requirement to worship Jesus])

1970 "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him' Hebrews 1:6." (New World Translation, 1950, 1961, 1970 editions, [The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to read, "do obeisance to" rather than "worship"])//

Monday, October 4, 2021

Captures of The King James Only Controversy on John 14:14

 

This blog is a supplement to my blog here: The Trinity demonstrated from The Lord's Prayer

 

The following captures are from James White's book, The King James Only Controversy. Just click on the pictures then open them in another browser tab for a very large legible close up version.




Sunday, October 3, 2021

The Trinity demonstrated from The Lord's Prayer

 

There are many ways to argue for the Trinity. Some are more direct than others [as I've documented on my blog]. Here's an indirect way to argue for the deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit from the Lord's Prayer. According to the Bible [sorry my Catholic friends], prayer is something you may only direct toward God who alone can hear and answer those prayers in that intimate relationship between the Creator and His creatures. In this article I'll go through the the Lord's Prayer and show how its petitions can be fulfilled in and by Christ and the Holy Spirit as well. I'll go through the Lord's Prayer twice and show how it applies to Christ and then later to the Holy Spirit. If the Lord's Prayer can also be applied in some sense to the Son and Spirit, then that's an indirect way of supporting the fully deity of the Son and Spirit. Often I'll list a number of verses as prooftexts. The lists aren't meant to be exhaustive. I could go on listing more verses, but a sample of verses should suffice.

The first point that needs to be recognized is that we can pray to the Son. Jesus said "If you ask ME anything in my Name I will do it" [John 14:12-14*]. The critical text has the word "Me" used by Jesus. Though, the Textus Receptus do not. I'm not sure but there might be some manuscripts in the Majority Text that include "Me." But modern critical texts do like the Nestle-Aland text and the United Bible Societies text. See this blog HERE for more details on the Greek of John 14:14. Paul prayed to Jesus for his thorn in the flesh to be removed [1 Cor. 12]. The Apostles prayed to the Lord to determine who would replace Judas [Acts 1:24]. The fact that Jesus can and ought to be prayed to should settle the issue of His full Deity. But I want to go further and show how the Lord's Prayer can also be applied to Jesus.

"Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be your Name..."

In Trinitarianism the person of the Father is not the Son, nor is the person of the Son the Father. Within the relations of the persons of the Trinity, the Father begets, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit proceeds. Yet, there are other senses in which we can call the Son "Father":

1. in that the Son is Creator as the Father is Creator. The Son is our ontological "Father" in that sense of also being Creator [Note how Eccl. 12:1 literally has "Creators" and Isa. 54:5 has "Fathers" and "Husbands"].

2. The Son is the "Everlasting Father" [or better translated] "Father of Eternity." Meaning, the Messiah possesses the attribute of eternality.

3. The Son is our "Father" redemptively. Jesus Himself referred to someone who He forgave [and eventually healed] "[my] son" in Matt. 9:2. Jesus wasn't afraid of calling someone "son" in that verse, as if it would deprive God the Father of any honor or glory.

"...who is in heaven..."


Jesus is in heaven. A textual variant in in John 3:13 implies there is a sense in which Jesus has always been in heaven [cf. the KJV which adds "which is in heaven"]. Even if we reject this doubitable variant, Jesus is said to be in the bosom of the Father [John 1:18]. Jesus is taught to be omnipresent. For example, He is said to fill "all in all" in Eph. 1:23. And even in heaven, Jesus is still with us to the very end of the Age [Matt. 28:20]. In fact, where two or three are gathered in Jesus' name, there He is among them [Matt. 18:20]. John 3:31 says Jesus is "above all" while at the same time having come to earth. It's as if Jesus is both in heaven and on earth simultaneously, even though there is a sense in which Jesus came to earth in a special way. This is all consistent with the Trinitarian understanding of the incarnation. Omnipresence implies the ability to be in multiple "places" at once. More could be said but that should suffice. We need to move along because there's much more in the Lord's Prayer.

"...hallowed be your Name..."


Jesus' name is hallowed in the use of the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:19 which is an act of worship. Notice how it doesn't say in the "nameS" plural, but in the "name" singular. Then it goes on to refer to the Father, Son and Spirit. By using the singular, Matthew unites all three as sharing the divine name, nature, attributes, and glory. That's why it's perfectly reasonable to invoke all three persons in baptism as an act of worship. If the Son and Spirit weren't fully God, then it would be blasphemous to so closely associate the names of the Son and Spirit with that of the Father, whose name is YHWH. But if the Son and Spirit share that Name, then it all makes perfect sense. Notice too that it uses the definite article for each person. "in the Name of THE Father and of THE So, and of THE Holy Spirit." Without the definite article, one might conclude that some kind of Modalism or Oneness understanding of the triad is true. But by using the definite article for each person, it affirms the genuine personal distinctions of all three. Thus, being more consistent with Trinitarianism, than with Modalism. While at the same time using the singular "Name" rather than "Names" so as to exclude other types of Unitarianism like Semi-Arianism, Arianism etc. Jesus also said we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father [John 5:23; 1 Pet. 3:15; Heb. 3:3]. Then there are doxologies to Christ which show we ought to hallow the Son's name. See for example my blogpost here:

Doxologies to Christ
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/05/doxologies-to-christ.html

Remember too that the Holy Spirit is invoked in adoring worship in the Pauline benediction of 2 Cor. 13:14. Where Paul prays, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." I could go on, but we need to move along.

"...Your Kingdom Come..."


We know that the Kingdom of the Father is also the Kingdom of the Son. This shouldn't be controversial. See for example,  2 Pet. 1:11; Dan. 7:13-14; Heb. 1:8 etc. There are also places where Jesus is expected to "Come." With the coming of the King simultaneously comes the Kingdom as well. Again, this shouldn't be controversial. See for example, Matt. 16:28; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23 etc.

Matt. 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man COMING in HIS KINGDOM."

"...Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."

The will of Jesus is also sovereign according to the New Testament and ought to be desired, prayed for and submitted to as the Father's will is.

James 4:15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."

1 Cor. 4:19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power.-

1 Cor. 16:7 For I do not want to see you now just in passing. I hope to spend some time with you, if the Lord permits.

Acts 21:13 Then Paul answered, "What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be imprisoned but even to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus."14 And since he would not be persuaded, we ceased and said, "Let the will of the Lord be done."

See more on this topic in my blogpost here:

Lord [Jesus Christ] Willing? God's Will and Christ's Will
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/05/lord-jesus-christ-willing-gods-will-and.html

"...Give us this day our daily bread..."

This "bread" refers to both spiritual/heavenly and material/earthly necessities. Jesus Himself said, that HE HIMSELF is the Bread that comes down from heaven and gives people eternal life [John 6:22ff.]. Jesus also multiplied literal physical bread when He miraculously multiplied bread for 5,000 people and then again for 4,000. Jesus even told Peter how to find a coin in a fish's mouth to pay his and Jesus' taxes. So, Jesus can literally make provision for the people of God.

"...And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors..."

We know from the Gospels that Jesus could forgive sins. So, this shouldn't be controversial and therefore doesn't need many prooftexts. One should suffice:

Mark 2:7    "Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8    And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question these things in your hearts?
9    Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, take up your bed and walk'?
10    But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"---he said to the paralytic---
11    "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home."

"...And lead us not into temptation..."

Jesus is repeatedly taught to be the Shepherd of God's people. Shepherds lead their flock. So, Jesus leading people shouldn't be controversial [cf. John 10:11, 14, 16; Heb. 13:20; 1 Pet. 2:25; 5:4;

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Rev. 7:For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and HE WILL GUIDE them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

1 Thess. 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, DIRECT our way to you,

In fact, the use of the singular verb in 1 Thess. 3:11 probably has theological significance suggesting the equality and unity of the Father and Son. See the commentaries here:
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_thessalonians/3-11.htm

"But deliver us from evil [or the evil one]..."

By "evil" it likely refers to all sorts of evils and calamities, as well as evil spirits, including and especially the Devil. Jesus is clearly taught to be our deliverer [cf. Titus 2:13-14; Matt. 1:23; Gal. 1:4 etc.]. We know Jesus delivered Peter from sinking into the lake when Peter cried out for help [Matt. 14:22-32].

2 Tim. 4:18 And the Lord will DELIVER ME from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Matt. 6:13b KJV "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
Matt. 6:13b NKJV "...For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen."

This famous ending is a textual variant that is considered by many scholars not to be original. Though, because of its antiquity and widespread use in Christian history, it is included in most modern Bible translations either as a footnote, or somehow within the main text, but identified in some way as uncertain. For example, being placed in brackets. Assuming for the sake argument that the phrase is authentic, or at least ought to be regarded AS IF authentic, IT TOO applies to Jesus. The last prooftext I gave in the previous segment of the Lord's Prayer is an example. Let me quote it again.

2 Tim. 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. TO HIM BE GLORY FOREVER AND EVER. Amen!

That passage is almost universally interpreted by seasoned commentators as referring to Jesus as the "Lord" rather than the Father. See also my blogpost on doxologies to Jesus here:

Doxologies to Christ
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/05/doxologies-to-christ.html

As well as my blogpost on Rom. 9:5 here:

Romans 9:5 and Christ's Full Deity
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/05/romans-95-and-christs-deity.html

Some might complain that if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then the Lord's Prayer should also apply to the Holy Spirit. It can. But even if it couldn't that wouldn't undermine the doctrine of the Trinity, because the doctrine also entails the doctrine of perichoresis [AKA circumincession] whereby the life and work of each person of the Trinity is involved and intricately intertwined with the others. This is why the Spirit of the Lord Jesus who is the Son of the Father, is also the same Spirit of the Father.

See my blogpost here:

The Spirit of Jesus
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-spirit-of-jesus.html




So, let's go through the Lord's Prayer and see if it can also apply to the Holy Spirit. I'll do this quickly because some of the same arguments I used for Jesus can be used for the Holy Spirit.

The first thing I want to point out is that the Holy Spirit can be prayed to. If He can be prayed to, then He is fully God as well. I've argued this in my blogpost here:

Praying to and Worshipping the Holy Spirit
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/08/praying-to-and-worshipping-holy-spirit.html

I'll skip repeating myself and go directly to the Lord's Prayer. One can read the blogpost above for why the Holy Spirit can be prayed to.

"Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be your Name..."

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, and therefore is also in heaven.

Ps. 139:7    Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8    If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

The Holy Spirit's name is to be hallowed, as I argued above with the Father and Jesus by appealing to the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:19 and the Pauline benediction in 2 Cor. 13:14.

"...Your Kingdom Come..."

Is the Holy Spirit associated with the Kingdom of God? Yes.

Matt. 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Rom. 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

"...Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."

Is the will of the Holy Spirit involved in the advancement of the Kingdom? Yes.

Acts 13:2    While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

1 Cor. 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

"...Give us this day our daily bread..."

Does the Holy Spirit give us our bread [i.e. necessities]? Yes, because every blessing from the Father through the Son is applied and made real in our experience in the Holy Spirit. That's a repeated teaching in the New Testament that shouldn't need prooftexting. Besides, 1 Cor. 12:11 teaches that spiritual gifts come from the Holy Spirit as He wills, and Act 13:2 teaches the Holy Spirit can speak and answer prayer [in that case for direction, guidance, appointment and commission]. So, it follows one can pray to the Holy Spirit for provisions. If the Holy Spirit can give the higher spiritual gifts, then He can also give the lower mundane/earthly gifts of material blessings. The parallels of Matt. 7:11 and Luke 11:13 imply that in having the Holy Spirit you have–in principle–every other good thing you might ever need, because all blessings flow from the Father, through the Son in and by the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Luke 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

"...And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors..."

Is forgiveness of sin associated with the Holy Spirit? Yes.

Titus 3:4    But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5    he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION AND RENEWAL OF THE Holy Spirit 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Acts 2:38    And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"...And lead us not into temptation..."

Is the Holy Spirit involved into leading? Yes. Even Jesus WAS lead into temptation/testing by the Holy Spirit [Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1-2]. The Holy Spirit also leads and guides

Rom. 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Gal. 5:18    But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

"But deliver us from evil [or the evil one]..."

Is the Holy Spirit associated with deliverance, salvation, rescue? To ask the question is to answer it. The Father and the Son are often described as doing those things by the Spirit. For example, Jesus' earthly ministry is described as empowered by the Holy Spirit. Jesus quoting Isa. 61 says in Luke:

Luke 4:8    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
19    To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Matt. 6:13b KJV "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

I've already mentioned how this is a dubitable textual variant. But assuming ad arguendo that it's authentic, it also applies to the Holy Spirit. What I said above about the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:19 and of the the Pauline benediction in 2 Cor. 13:14 apply here too to the Holy Spirit. See also my blogposts here:

All Three Persons of the Trinity Mentioned In Scripture (Directly or Indirectly)
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/09/all-three-persons-of-trinity-mentioned.html 

 The Full Deity of the Holy Spirit
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-full-deity-of-holy-spirit.html

Saturday, June 26, 2021

Putting Jesus in His Place with Author Robert Bowman Jr.

 

One of the best books in defense of the full Deity of Jesus Christ is Putting Jesus in His Place co-authored by Robert M. Bowman Jr.  In the following video Robert Bowman is interviewed by Al Fadi on his EXCELLENT book.


Putting Jesus in His Place with Author Robert Bowman Jr.
https://youtu.be/wat41USepy0




Monday, June 21, 2021

Thursday, June 3, 2021

Contra Michael Heiser on Genesis 1:26 by Anthony Rogers

 

Contra Michael Heiser on Genesis 1:26 by Anthony Rogers
https://youtu.be/_9o59mgmQ3I





All the times the Bible calls Jesus "God"

 

All the times the Bible calls Jesus "God"
https://youtu.be/e-BmKEhLtMk


I posted in the comments of this video this following comment:


17:58 Ethan asked forgiveness if he missed any verses. Great Video brother. Here are some other verses. Jesus might be called "true God" in 1 John 5:20. Many commentators think so, while others don't. There's a textual variant in 1 Tim. 3:16 where it says "God was manifested in the flesh". The critical text suggests that "God" is likely not original. But even critical text advocate James White thinks it's not impossible that the original might have been "God". For honesty's sake, and full disclosure's sake, regarding John 1:18, there are textual variants which don't have "God" but rather "Son". Another problem is that while in the past 100 or so years "monogenes" was switched from the traditional interpretation to being interpreted as "unique" or "one of a kind", the tide is turning back to the traditional interpretation. Even theologian and scholar Wayne Grudem has changed his mind and now takes the tradition interpretation of "only begotten". He has defended his view in his recent revision of his "Introduction to Systematic Theology" [the excerpt of which was posted by Sam Shamoun in one of his blogs].





Monday, May 24, 2021

How To Find Jesus in the Old Testament [Video Playlist] by Mike Winger

 

 Even though Mike Winger isn't a trained scholar like the kind of experts I usually like to link to in this blog, the following playlist of videos has pastor Mike Winger showing the places in the Old Testament where he believes Jesus is found in prophecies, types, shadows, emblems etc. I don't agree with everything he says, but most of what he does say are things most Trinitarians like myself would say.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWlpQauXiTU&list=PLZ3iRMLYFlHsHyvMtfgOgSPU6zEnCvxUO



Saturday, May 22, 2021

A H.A.N.D.S. Approach to Showing Jesus is God

 

The following link is to an article that briefly explains Robert M. Bowman Jr. and J. Ed Komoszewski's acronym H.A.N.D.S. which they used in their EXCELLENT book Putting Jesus in His Place:The Case for the Deity of Christ to defend the fully Deity of Jesus Christ.


A  H.A.N.D.S. Approach to Showing Jesus is God


I highly recommend reading Robert M. Bowman Jr. and J. Ed Komoszewski's book Putting Jesus in His Place:The Case for the Deity of Christ. If you can, get the revised edition.

"Yes, Bart Ehrman, Jesus is Yahweh" by Jonathan McLatchie


Here's an excellent article by Jonathan McLatchie where he responds to Bart Ehrman on Jesus being Yahweh 


Yes, Bart Ehrman, Jesus is Yahweh by Jonathan McLatchie





An Argument That Paul's Usual Greeting "God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" Might Be A Christianized Form of the Shema

 

 

It is now commonly recognized by scholars that 1 Cor. 8:6 is a Christianized version of the Shema. It has become a central plank of the Early High Christology thesis held by many prominent scholars. Interestingly, the following article I've linked to below offers an argument for why the Apostle Paul's usual greeting "God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" might be a Christianized form of the Jewish Shema of Deut. 6:4 as translated from the Hebrew to the Greek of the Septuagint/LXX.   


https://jesusmonotheism.com/richard-bauckham-and-the-numerical-structure-of-the-confession-in-1-cor-86/



SEE ALSO:

Apostolic Salutations (Part One); Q&A
by Anthony Rogers
https://youtu.be/uml7b9lReyk




Apostolic Salutations (Part Two); Live Q&A
by Anthony Rogers
https://youtu.be/FDT0hf8stLg






Friday, May 21, 2021

Does Mark 13:32 Disprove Jesus' Omniscience?

 

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.- Mark 13:32 ESV 


Mark 13:32 is the number one verse used by atheists and anti-Trinitarians to argue that Jesus wasn't omniscient. There are a number of passages in the New Testament that appear to show that Jesus wasn't omniscient. As a Trinitarian I usually explain them by appealing to the two minds view of Christ [popularized by Thomas V. Morris' book The Logic of God Incarnate] whereby Christ's divine mind is omniscient while His human mind is not omniscient. However, that explanation doesn't fully work in responding to Mark 13:32 because it doesn't address the problem that the Holy Spirit isn't accounted for. It would still leave the Holy Spirit not omniscient, contrary to 1 Cor. 2:10 which states, "For the [Holy] Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God." One could get around that by saying that the Lord Jesus didn't intend to include the Holy Spirit in the equation. While that works, it probably won't satisfy most atheists and anti-Trinitarian theists. The following videos answer the problem of Mark 13:32 in a way that does overcome all the problems. All three videos describe in varying depth the solution that I initially resisted when I first encountered it. However, it makes a lot more sense to me nowadays. See also my blogpost Jesus' Omniscience where I present the positive Biblical evidence for Jesus' omniscience. I've linked to it a second time at the very bottom of this blogpost.



How Can Jesus Be God if He Did Not Know the Day and Hour of the Final Judgment
by Anthony Rogers

The a longer clip of the above video is on another YouTube channel here:
https://youtu.be/6Y3qf1aRTkA 



Why Didn't Jesus & the Holy Spirit Know the Hour?
by Michael Jones



The Importance of Theology: Defending the Deity of Christ
by Tony Costa

The above video has been cued to address the topic directly at 13 minutes and 27 seconds. However, the entire video is very good in defending the omniscience of Jesus. So, I also recommending watching the whole video.




SEE ALSO MY BLOGPOST:      Jesus' Omniscience

Excerpts from a Conversation I had on Facebook [2021 05]


Unitarian: //I think the Bible is clear on how many true gods are there, don't you?//

If you understood what Trinitarianism teaches, then you'd know that Trinitarians believe there is one true God, and that Jesus as well as the Father and the Spirit are the one true God. There are different formulations/conceptions of the Trinity. My default position is the standard Evangelical one where God is one in being and three in person. Rocks have being. They have or are stuff. But rocks aren't persons. While humans also have being but are also persons.  A contradiction is defined as saying X and non-X are true at the same time and/or in the same sense.  It WOULD be a contradiction to say that God is one in person and three in person. Just as it would be a contradiction to say that God is one in being and three in being. But most Trinitarians say that God is one in being and three in person. Therefore there is no contradiction since being and person are two distinct categories. God is one "what" and three "whos". Meaning three persons [some would even say centers of consciousnesses] share the one being [i.e. stuff] of God.

A case could be made that 1 John 5:20 teaches Jesus is also the "true God". Seem my blogpost here:

//Don't you think it is possible that God could have easily said that He is also three in an unequivocal manner as He did declare His unitary existence in the Shema?//

The Bible teaches the concept of Progressive Revelation where He reveals truth fuller and fuller, clearer and clearer down through Redemptive History. So, the Trinity is clearer in the New Testament than in the Old Testament. Yet, it's in the OT as well too. Some Trinitarians think it's only hinted at in the OT. While other Trinitarians think it's clearly and explicitly taught. I'm somewhere in between. I recommend Anthony Rogers debates and videos [some of which are at his channel] where he argues that the Trinity is explicitly taught in the OT. I think Rogers is the best living defender of the Trinity. Start with his debates on the Angel of the Lord where he argues for Jesus being the Angel of the Lord [links below].

Messianic Jews themselves point to the fact that the Shema mentions God three times as a remez [i.e. hint] of the Trinity [see David H. Stern's "Jewish New Testament Commentary".

//(2) Remez ("hint") — wherein a word, phrase or other element in the text hints at a truth not conveyed by the p'shat. The implied presupposition is that God can hint at things of which the Bible writers themselves were unaware.// Stern page 12 

Regarding Mark 12:29 and Jesus' recitation of the Shema, Stern wrote:

//...Likewise, here in the Sh'ma (Deuteronomy 6:4) there are two such r'mazim: (1) the triple reference to God, and (2) the use of the word "echad," which often means a multiple unity (such as "one" cluster of grapes or "one" bundle of sticks) instead of "yachid," which nearly always excludes multiple oneness.// Stern page 97

I disagree with the latter part of what Stern says. He should have phrased it this way: "echad" only MEANS "one", but it can REFER to a complex unity or oneness. He's wrong in saying it can MEAN complex one.

Moreover, as I said above in another thread, a number of scholars are in agreement that because of the grammar, vocabulary, wording, phraseology and syntax, in 1 Cor. 8:6 Paul is adapting the Greek Septuagint's [i.e. the LXX] translation of the Shema and including Jesus within it. What's interesting is that Paul uses the phrase "one Lord" not for the Father, but for the Son. One would expect that given the Hebrew context that it refers to the tetragrammaton [i.e. Yahweh/Yehovah], that Paul would apply "one Lord" to the Father. While applying the Greek phrase "one God" to the Son since the Hebrew elohim is commonly also used for beings other than Almighty God. Yet, counter-intuitively Paul predicates Jesus as being the "one Lord/Yehovah" of the Shema. That Paul is also affirming the equality of the Father and the Son can be seen by how Paul uses "gods" and "lords" in the previous verse.

1 Cor. 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth---as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"---

Notice that Paul refers to the pagan gods and lords as if the two terms are equvalent and interchangeable. He doesn't imply that pagan gods are higher or greater than pagan lords. If he had, then a Unitarian could argue that by using "God" for the Father and "Lord" for the Son, he was indicating that the Father is greater than the Son. Instead, just as pagan gods and lords are equivalents/interchangeable terms, so Paul is implying and equality between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are many other arguments for the Trinity, but those are just some. I've argued for the Trinity at my blog TrinityNotes.blogspot.com. Though, sometimes when one clicks on the link FROM FACEBOOK it is said to be a website that's not safe. I don't know why that is. Maybe I need to format my blog differently.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman

The Trinity in Jewish and Christian Scripture by Anthony Rogers

Anthony Rogers' Youtube channel:

A Playlist of SOME of Anthony Rogers' Debates in Video:

Anthony Rogers' Articles at Answering Islam on the Trinity and Islam:

ALL of Anthony Rogers' Debates in MP3:

//My question is why this doctrine wasn't enunciated clearly if it's essential for one to understand Christology or soteriology in the first place.//

The New Testament isn't a systematic theology book. The Gospels record biographies of Jesus when the disciples were still growing in their understanding of the Gospel and all its implications. They didn't even know [or were fully convinced] that the Gospel was supposed to go to the Gentiles. They had to grow in their understanding of in what sense the Law was and wasn't binding on believers [both Jew and Gentile]. They had to grow in their understanding of the place of the ceremonial laws. They had to grow in their understanding theologically in other ways. Moreover, most of the NT is composed of occassional letters written on the occasion of addressing specific topics X, Y, Z. For example, as important as the Lord's Supper is, there's only one post Ascension passage that covers it with any depth. That's why for example, Paul doesn't mention many historical nuggets and saying of Jesus even though there is indication that he was aware of some. This absence is something many atheists like to point out to argue for Mythicism [cf. Richard Carrier]. Much of the epistle's teaching presupposes prior instruction in the faith. That's why it presupposes things like the fully deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit. 

In fact, non-Messianic Jewish scholars [like Alan Segal, Daniel Boyarin et al.] admit that prior to the birth of Christ and lasting till past the 1st century CE when Jews were threatened by the growth of Christianity, it was within Jewish orthodoxy to believe in the "Two Power in Heaven" doctrine during the time of the lives of the Apostles. It's within that milieu that we must read the NT. Not in post 2nd Temple Period rabbinic Judaism that was self-consciously mono-personal strict monotheistic in opposition to Christianity. To the point where by the time of Maimonides, he started describing God as yachid instead of echad. 

There's a general consensus among scholars now [including Bauckham, Wright, Fee et al.] that 1 Cor. 8:6 has Paul Christianizing the Shema and in some way including Jesus in the Shema. I've briefly argued this in some of the other threads in this post. 

See also this eye-opening article which strongly suggests that the Paul's common opening for his letters which say, "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" is an articulation of that Christianized Shema.

Regarding the personality and full Deity of the Holy Spirit, see my blogpost here:

Regarding the threeness within the Godhead see my blogpost here:

When one does an exhaustive study of the NT, one sees this presupposition of the Trinity. I've documented much of this in my blog: https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/   Or better yet, watch Anthony Rogers videos.

The pluritarian nature of God is also seen in the OT in many ways, for example the word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.

When all is said and done, the Old Testament uses plural nouns, plural pronouns, plural verbs, plural adverbs, and plural adjectives for God. An all wise God would not inspire His revelation to use such language if Unitarianism were true. However, if some form of pluritarian monotheism is true [as in Trinitarianism], then such language makes perfect sense

////Nick Norelli in his book The Defense of an Essential: A Believer’s Handbook for Defending the Trinity listed the following:

1. Plural Verbs

o Genesis 20:13
English Translation: God caused me to wander
Hebrew: ה התתְעוו ו אלתהים, א אלֹל ה היםם
Literally: They caused me to wander

o Genesis 35:7
English Translation: God appeared
Hebrew: נהגתְלֹו ו א אלֹלָיםו לָ ה א אלֹל ה היםם
Literally: They appeared

o 2Samuel 7:23
English Translation: God went
Hebrew: לָ הלֹתְכוו ו -א א אלֹל ה היםם
Literally: They went

o Psalms 58:12
English Translation: God that judges
Hebrew: א אלֹל ה היםם ששלפתְ ה טיםם
Literally: Gods that judge

2. Plural Adjectives

o Deuteronomy 5:26
English Translation: living God
Hebrew: א אלֹל ה היםם ח חים ה יםום
Literally: Living Gods8

o Joshua 24:19
English Translation: holy God
Hebrew: א אלֹל ה היםם תְ קדֹלששהיםם
Literally: Holy Gods

3. Plural Nouns

o Ecclesiastes 12:1
English Translation: thy Creator
Hebrew: בוולרתְ אֶ איםךלָ
Literally: Creators

o Isaiah 54:5
English Translation: For thy Maker is thy husband
Hebrew: בל ע עולֹחיִךתְ עולששחיִךתְ
Literally: Makers, Husbands9

o Malachi 1:6
English Translation: Master
Hebrew: ע אדֹולנהיםם
Literally: Masters10

o Daniel 7:18
English Translation: Most High
Hebrew: אֶ עולֹתְיםולנהיםן
Literally: Most High Ones

footnotes:
8 See also 1Samuel 17:26, 36 & Jeremiah 10:10, 23:36 for “living Gods”
9 See also Psalm 149:2 for “Makers”
10 Nearly every occurrence of the noun “Lord” ( ע אדֹולנהים ) in reference to God appears in the plural form.////

Even non-Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. Benjamin Sommer, a professor in Bible and ancient Near Eastern languages at the Jewish Theological Seminary (that’s right, the Jewish Theological Seminary) wrote in his recent book, The Bodies of God:
“Some Jews regard Christianity’s claim to be a monotheistic religion with grave suspicion, both because of the doctrine of the trinity (how can three equal one?) and because of Christianity’s core belief that God took bodily form. . . . No Jew sensitive to Judaism’s own classical sources, however, can fault the theological model Christianity employs when it avows belief in a God who has an earthly body as well as a Holy Spirit and a heavenly manifestation, for that model, we have seen, is a perfectly Jewish one. A religion whose scripture contains the fluidity traditions [[[referring to God appearing in bodily form in the Tanakh]]], whose teachings emphasize the multiplicity of the shekhinah, and whose thinkers speak of the sephirot does not differ in its theological essentials from a religion that adores the triune God.”

That statement by Sommer is more consistent with Modalism rather than Trinitarianism. But I quote it to show that even Jewish scholars recognize how in the OT God revealed Himself in a plurality of ways that opens the door to options like Trinitarianism.

Even the pre-Christian Jewish Aramaic Targumim often personified the Word of the Lord. See:

Word of the Lord in the Targums

Given all this background and more [I've only scratched the surface], one should be reading the New Testament in that light. IF one does, then the implicit Trinitarianism of the NT will be seen in every nook and cranny.

//Where in the Bible does God define himself/itself as a "what" being which has "whos"?//

It doesn't. That's a post Biblical way of articulating what the New Testament logically requires. Admittedly, it's not the only Trinitarian formulation. There are others as I admitted earlier. You have to remember that the NT was mostly written by Jews that were influenced by Greek thought, but not so much that they were Hellenized. The Greeks were very much into the philosophy of ontology and metaphysics. The Jews, and the Semitic mindset were not. That's why the NT doesn't delve into the metaphysics of how EXACTLY/PRECISELY God is three-in-one. Yet, humans and theologians can't help but ask metaphysical questions and give some answers. Both Trinitarians AND Unitarians ask metaphysical questions and give answers regarding who/what is Jesus and the Holy Spirit and what is their relation to the Father. When one factors in all the Biblical data and uses the philosophical tool of logic, I'm convinced that something like the Trinity must be true. Otherwise the Bible cannot be a consistent infallible book. 

See The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman

//1 John 5:20 need not mean that Jesus is the true God. It's still ambiguous which is the very substance of my question to you.//

But that's just one data point out of hundreds that point to a Trinity. People have this false conception of evidence that in order to be evidence for a proposition it needs to "carry the day," as it were, on this evidence. It needs to be able to fully support and fully justify the conclusion. That's simply incorrect. A piece of evidence can raise the probability for a proposition being true, without by itself being sufficient to justify that proposition. All the evidence must be weighed together cumulatively. When done so, something like Trinitarianism MUST be true. [bolded part is a quote from Jonathan McLatchie HERE].

//You reading a Trinity into the Shema is a bit of a stretch.//

It's the general consensus among NT scholars precisely because of the grammar, syntax, vocabulary and phraseology of 1 Cor. 8:6 corresponds so well with the Shema as found in the LXX. Again, this is one of many data points that point to the Trinity. 

//Now are we going to ignore the fact that Jesus was made Lord and Christ?//

Acts 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Jesus was Lord and Christ prior to Acts 2:36. The word "made" there means to make evident. We Trinitarians argue that Jesus is one of the YHVH of the OT. Many Trinitarians also argue Jesus was the "Angel of the LORD" in the OT. Since the Angel of the LORD was also YHVH [see Rogers' evidence], therefore Jesus was kurios even prior to His incarnation. Even Phil. 2:6-11 teaches a personal preexistence of Jesus where He was in the form of God [i.e. God by nature].

//Paul in the same book v 15:28 says that Jesus isn't equal to God in the sense you are implying.//

That passage is perfectly consistent with Trinitarianism given post-incarnational functional subordination of the Son to the Father. While some modern Christians reject pre-incarnational [as well as pre-creational] subordination of the Son to the Father, I don't. It was a standard view of earlier Trinitarians. BTW, this is part of the recent debate among my fellow Evangelicals regarding EFS/ESS/ERAS. I do lean toward ERAS [Eternal Relations of Authority and Submission] among the persons of the Trinity sans [apart from/"before"] creation. Eternal Functional Subordination is the more common term.

What's more "problematic" would be verse 24 which states, "He delivers the kingdom to God the Father". But that delivery cannot be thorough and complete. Otherwise it contradicts Dan. 7 which states that the Son of Man's [i.e. the Messiah's] Kingdom would be everlasting. The most obvious way to resolve the apparent contradiction is to say that this "delivery" is a presentation of the Kingdom by the Son to the Father as having completed His given task to subdue all creation and all of God's enemies. Also that as to his office as the human messiah Christ delievers the Kingdom to the Father. But as to His essential Divinity, the Son retains Kingdom authority.